How many pups in a tent?

[boleta]

Bob White said, "Our junior leaders are trained to do two to a tent regardless of the capacity". OK, so you train them that there should only be 2 to a tent. Is it then alright when they decide 3 or 4 to a tent is ok? I see all the reasons to limit the number of kids in a tent, but don't see it as a major issue.

[Bob White]

Boleta,

 

They were trained to make good decisions. If a situation arose where putting more than two in the tent was appropriate, I am confident that they would make the correct decision.

 

Hops,

As a matter of health and safety it is unwise to have a scout tent alone. It raises the opportunity for one-on-one adult youth contact, or if the scout should become ill or injured it could seriously reduce the response time for someone to come to his aid. Just something to consider.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Jason OK]

This problem can be solved quicker than you think. Once you have inserted your boot take your time taking it out. It will leave an impression for them to ponder about.

[Mike F]

It's really an issue of "boys being boys" and allowing them to sleep in groups that achieve critical mass. The more you group together, the more overwhelming the temptation to ignore things like Courteous and Obedient, not to mention common sense and respect. This can be handled by either rules (2/tent) or discipline.

 

Our older Philmont crew arrived late to a crowded camp a few months ago. As the night was cool and clear, the guys decided to sleep under the stars. About 8 of them were crowded together, excited about being out, and the joyous ruckus commenced. After a few minutes to enjoy the moment, their Crew Leader was heard trying to get them to settle down. When his efforts were unsuccessful, I called out time to quiet down. When that didnt work, I walked over. In a calm, clear voice I told them we had observed them ignoring their leader and their actions were disrupting others and would not be tolerated - settle down now or prepare to call your parents to come get you in the morning. (A 5-hr drive.) Not another peep was heard.

 

I asked my son the next morning if anyone questioned whether or not I meant it. "Nope." What would you have told them if they had asked? "Darned right you'd do it." I also counseled the Crew Leader about being more assertive when he needs to letting him know the adults would back him up. In our post-weekend debrief with the crew, we emphasized discipline and the role of the Crew Leader and the fact that the adults were there to back him up. We haven't had a problem the Crew Leader couldnt handle since that weekend. Instead of giving them a rule to follow (which would prevent the problem), we've given them clear expectations and consequences - and they learn self-control.

 

BTW - "back in the day," I grew up using OGE's "Canadian Bell" Army surplus tents - one per patrol. Sure wish I could get my hands on some today. What you risk in "critical mass" concerns, you gain in patrol unity.

 

Woodsmith - For your "Party Tent Gang," you might try talking to them about the problem. Make your expectations clear - like party ends at troop lights out time. For consequences, you could tell them they won't be allowed to bring the party tent on the next campout. Whatever it is, tell them up front, before everyone's tired at the end of the day and tempers start to flare. If you ever have to send someone home, I guarantee it won't happen a second time - word gets out fast.

Another question - is your Party Tent Gang in one patrol? We insist on scouts sleeping by patrol - even if this just means grouping their smaller tents together.

 

Good luck! -mike

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Just a rhetorical quesiton, I don't agree with limiting tent occupants to 2 scouts per tent, but if thats what works, for whatever reason, either troop By Law or trained decision, then thats the way it will be in those tents. I do have a quesiton though, what do you do with the issue of "settling" down when you are Cabin Camping and the entire youth entourage is sleeping together in one room?

[Bob White]

It is really not that different in our case. The junior leaders are trained that the group should be courteous to others, and part of that is keeping the noise down as of lights out.

 

But cabin camping has some built in controls that tent camping does not have.

 

We cabin camp only during the worst of the winter months. There are seldom any other campers nearby that might be disturbed by any human sounds at night.

 

Cabins offer a degree of noise buffering that tents don't, so sounds from late night conversations do not travel as far.

 

Bodys expend more energy in cold weather, and the scouts are usually far more tired by the day's end on winter camps then during warmer times. So the scouts tend to fall asleep much sooner when we cabin camp.

 

Settling down is rarely a problem.

 

Others may have different experiences, but that is ours.

 

 

[eisely]

Our troop does not own tents, and most times this is not a problem for us. Everyone is correct that the large tent is a symptom of a larger problem. Nevertheless, the tent issue can be approached on its own merits. Aside from the noise issue, there are two reasons for limiting tent capacities. First, in many campsites, there may not be room for a single larger tent. Second, carrying extra canvas is a burden for the entire crew, and that goes for tents occupied by single scouts too. I would suggest that the PLC can be asked to address this issue from the viewpoint stated above.

[mk9750]

This is only one example, but I bet it's not THAT uncommon...

 

We have a Patrol of middle to older age guys who have sleep overs at each other's house every weekend that there isn't a campout. These guys are all great buddies, and they have a great time. They play some silly video game called Halo, and they stay up all night. They each bring money for pizza and pop, and they do a nice job of keeping the noise to a very low roar.

 

This same Patrol owns a screened gazebo they take on campouts in the summer time, and they tend to congregate in there after dinner, playing cards, chess, or just shooting the breeze. They never seem to be so loud as to bother anyone, and they go to bed when they choose to, and always by 11:00 or 11:30.

 

I don't believe anyone "Trained" them to keep it down, and go to bed at a reasonable hour, and I know no one "Makes" them do so. And they're used to staying up all night with each other in other settings.

 

My point is that perhaps if we just had the expectation that boys will do the right thing, boys will do the right thing.

 

Mark

[Bob White]

I think that's great, and I think most scouts behave well. But nobody trained them on courteous behavior? Ever? Maybe not in a sit down talking head fashion, but you don't think anyone ever set the example for them when they were younger, or gave a leader some quiet guidance or suggestion? Ever?

 

I only ask because I have never met a gang of teenagers that were born with a predisposition to be quite as a group. A nice characteristic but hardly one that is commonly found in teen genetics.

[mk9750]

That's why I put "Trained" in quotation marks. Absolutely, their behavior is a product of what they were taught at home, and to a very large extent, what they have seen older boys who came before them do. But I am rather certain no one sat them down, individually, or in a group, and said "Now boys, you know that it might disturb someone else if you're too loud too late. So I don't want to tell you what to do, but you probably should consider keeping the noise down, and going to bed at a decent hour."

 

My point is that I believe most Scouts tend toward being considerate. I can't believe our guys are better than most anone else's. Give your guys a chance to behave, and way more often than not, they will. does it ever back fire? Heck yeah. See my thread on a Patrol of difficult Scouts for a prime example. But more often than not, we get the behavior we expect. The trick is to have the right expectations.

 

Mark

[ozemu]

This question has been visited before a few times.

 

It is also the only thing that I think BW and disagree on. But I do take his point. I'm with OGE and Mike F though for the following reasons.

 

Big tents can mean Patrols camping together. The PL keeping the guys in line. A great learning experience for those who let things get out of hand. The Patrol system at work 24/7.

 

My Patrols sleep in big tents normally. Not always. The program issue is more important than the tent issue. So small tents for hikes

and big tents other times. They decide.

 

So I see the big tents as a program issue. The Scouts get used to what is expected and tolerated. Also the infrequent campers are highly visible. They make lots of noise as they are very excited about the new experienece. The older hands tell them off.

 

No rules just options. The problem is certainly not the tent.

 

Also the bigger tents use lashing ropes and natural timber poles (sometimes bamboo). Getting them up and keeping them waterproof and warm is a skill. Doing it quickly is an art and our guys are really proud when it goes well. Another training thing.

 

Oh yeah BW and I also disagree about the Indin Lore badge appearing on Australian Scout uniforms but mate they look great and the discussions and eyes that are opened when other Scouts see thenm is worth a lot of improper rule bending. I suppose I am promoting BSA stuff over here by allowing it. All for the greater good I reckon. (Just pulling your leg a little BW)

[Landwire]

Based on my experience between several troops, I present the following: Most scouts have between 2-4 man tents and will often have 2-3 scouts per tent on their choice. Every now and then, there is the party tent that shows up. What happens is that one scout who has a 4 man tent will set his up as the "changing tent" In the party tent, we had as many as 8 scouts there. The only problem is that it takes a lot longer to pack up. Quiet times or lights out or whatever you want to call it has never been a problem. Activities are planned to where every participates. Depending on the length of the campout, there are also planned "personal time" of various length. If during this time the scouts are in the party tent, so what, it is their choice as the personal time is their time.

 

So far, there has never been a problem and works for me.