How to deal with a difficult leader?

[ParkMan]

As long as Grandpa really serving as "Supervising Scoutmaster", this seems legit to me.  I gather that Grandpa is checking on decisions and making sure YPT rules are being followed.  It strikes me that this is a reason the BSA has the 21 and older rule.  So, as long as Grandpa is fulfilling those functions - this seems legit to me.  However, to @David CO's point - I do hope the IH, COR, and CC are all on board with this.

In terms of dealing with other adults, I'd want a clear statement of how this works.  Asking a 30+ year old adult to follow the direction of a younger adult is fine - it happens all the time in life.  However, there cannot be any ambiguity here.  If some adults think @CodyMiller351 isn't really in charge it creates a very difficult situation that is ultimately unfair to @CodyMiller351,

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by ParkMan
accidental submit. Corrected content.

[Eagledad]

I have often bragged that my dad was a 16 year old SM. It was the middle of WWII and there weren’t any male adults around to lead. My dad worked a deal with my grandpa that if he would sign all the paperwork, my dad would do the rest.

And he wasn’t the only one, I met another adult who was a 16 year old SM of a troop  that couldn’t find a volunteer in their small town. He was one of the best trainers I’ve ever worked with. 

Maybe we adults are making this Scouting stuff too hard.

Barry

[CodyMiller351]

10 hours ago, David CO said:

I am thinking of the liability issues. Yes, your Chartered Organization should be concerned. 

 

 

There is no liability issues that would differ from normal circumstances. I am not the only leader. All of are other leaders meet the “above 21” rule.  Also, I know it’s not my job, but there is a job to do. Anyone who doesn’t consider being a Scoutmaster a job doesn’t understand the entire role. 

[CodyMiller351]

10 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

@CodyMiller351, I am going to have to agree with @David CO.  According to BSA regulations you must be 21 years of age to be the Scoutmaster.  With the new YPT2 rules, you wouldn't even count toward the two deep leadership yet as the rules state "two 21 year old registered" adults.  I understand you are doing the job but there is a risk involved.  Trust me when I say this, if something happens and there are only two of you, BSA will not cover or protect you.  I know this by personally watching it happen to an Assistant Scoutmaster with over 40 years of experience in BSA.  You can get a lot of advice here on this forum but I would encourage you to read up of the rules and regulations of BSA before going out.  I only have 15 years of Scouting Experience and I am learning something new all the time.  Good Luck.

We always try to meet that rule as best as we can.  I can’t remember the last time we didn’t have 2 leaders at a Scout function that wee at least 21. 

[CodyMiller351]

39 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I have often bragged that my dad was a 16 year old SM. It was the middle of WWII and there weren’t any male adults around to lead. My dad worked a deal with my grandpa that if he would sign all the paperwork, my dad would do the rest.

And he wasn’t the only one, I met another adult who was a 16 year old SM of a troop  that couldn’t find a volunteer in their small town. He was one of the best trainers I’ve ever worked with. 

Maybe we adults are making this Scouting stuff too hard.

Barry

I agree about this Scouting stuff becoming too hard/complicated. 

9 hours ago, qwazse said:

@David CO and @Ranman328, the letter of the G2SS is not being violated. GrandPaw is the SM with three ASMs, of which @CodyMiller351 is the natural leader by delegation, recognition, and talent. They have enough 21-plus around that they need the "big tent" to keep them all under canvas. The YPT boxes are checked.

Better yet, it seems GrandPaw and the other ASMs regard function over form along the lines that @Oldscout448 and @DuctTape are inclined  to recognize.

I don't know about you all, but when the SM tells me to do something along the lines of "run the troop in my absence", my job is scoutmaster. I get whatever credit or blame comes my way, and it doesn't get passed anywhere else. Same goes for my other ASMs. So, the title is "assistant" but the job is "scoutmaster."

So what's needed here? Ways to help this assistant to become a better scoutmaster. Pretending that molehills are mountains ain't it.

Thank you for your response. Hopefully they understand what you’re saying. 

[Eagle94-A1]

On 11/30/2018 at 9:42 PM, David CO said:

Your Chartered Organization should be concerned. 

 

On 12/1/2018 at 8:42 AM, David CO said:

I am thinking of the liability issues. Yes, your Chartered Organization should be concerned. 

 

I agree that the CO should be concerned. SM needs to be active. And over 21 because there are a lot of legalese involved. If the SM cannot be involved, you really need someone over 21 to be in charge.  There can indeed be some serious liability issues too. HOWEVER

On 11/30/2018 at 9:42 PM, David CO said:

I see the problem. You have parents in your unit who don't accept you as the Scoutmaster, official or otherwise. I can't entirely blame them. You are not a Scoutmaster.

While he is not the Scoutmaster,  he IS an Assistant Scoutmaster as approved by the CO and the SM. The parents need to accept his directions as if those directions came from the SM because the ASM works under the SM. If the parents have a problem they need to see the SM and/or COR about this. BUT THEY NEED TO FOLLOW THE ASM'S DIRECTIONS UNTIL THEY DO SO. (emphasis, not shouting). I've been in the situation where I was the defacto acting SM as a 19 and 20 year old ASM instead of the 21+ year old ASM.

Sadly our society treats young adults like children still. Not only through Scouts, but also studying military history, I can tell you that teenagers and young adults can meet the challenges of adulthood. Anyone hear of William H. Johnston or Jacklyn Harrell "Jack" Lucas? 

[Ranman328]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:26 AM, qwazse said:

@David CO and @Ranman328, the letter of the G2SS is not being violated. GrandPaw is the SM with three ASMs, of which @CodyMiller351 is the natural leader by delegation, recognition, and talent. They have enough 21-plus around that they need the "big tent" to keep them all under canvas. The YPT boxes are checked.

Better yet, it seems GrandPaw and the other ASMs regard function over form along the lines that @Oldscout448 and @DuctTape are inclined  to recognize.

I don't know about you all, but when the SM tells me to do something along the lines of "run the troop in my absence", my job is scoutmaster. I get whatever credit or blame comes my way, and it doesn't get passed anywhere else. Same goes for my other ASMs. So, the title is "assistant" but the job is "scoutmaster."

So what's needed here? Ways to help this assistant to become a better scoutmaster. Pretending that molehills are mountains ain't it.

@qwazse, I never said he violated anything.  What I did say is that if it was @CodyMiller351 and one other ASM, it would be a problem. I do not agree with this new YPT rule as I feel if you are over 18 and can serve this country then you can run a Troop or Pack.  I am not sure what the letter of the G2SS has to do with this.

[Ranman328]

16 hours ago, CodyMiller351 said:

We always try to meet that rule as best as we can.  I can’t remember the last time we didn’t have 2 leaders at a Scout function that wee at least 21. 

Here is the problem.  One of your other posts you say there is "No Liability" but the above post suggests you don't always follow YPT rules.  That was my point.  Be careful because BSA will leave you out in the cold the first chance they get if you don't follow the YPT.  I know this first hand.  Our old SM/ASM was forced to quit Scouting, Retire from his Government Job and spend thousands of dollars to defend himself in court.  BSA didn't lift a hand to help.  Just be careful.  My $ .02.

[qwazse]

33 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

@qwazse, I never said he violated anything.  What I did say is that if it was @CodyMiller351 and one other ASM, it would be a problem. I do not agree with this new YPT rule as I feel if you are over 18 and can serve this country then you can run a Troop or Pack.  I am not sure what the letter of the G2SS has to do with this.

You describe a pure hypothetical, and one that simply does not apply based on facts in evidence. Every event that @CodyMiller351 described made it clear that two or more 21+ers were present.  It's also a problem if they take the boys pistol-shooting, or quad riding, or if they go swimming without qualified supervision. There's a laundry list of such pitfalls a troop -- especially a very small one -- should avoid, but if it looks like the troop is being compliant, bringing up such a list doesn't address any imminent problem.

The imminent problem is an adult who doesn't want to step in line. Honestly, I don't think that has much to do with the young 1st ASM. I think this has to do with a dad who is insecure about how to take care of his boy and how to relate to others, so he is trying to carve out his niche in this group and do things "just so" for the sake of his personal comfort. Most of us have witnessed this in one form or another.

[ParkMan]

53 minutes ago, qwazse said:

You describe a pure hypothetical, and one that simply does not apply based on facts in evidence. Every event that @CodyMiller351 described made it clear that two or more 21+ers were present.  It's also a problem if they take the boys pistol-shooting, or quad riding, or if they go swimming without qualified supervision. There's a laundry list of such pitfalls a troop -- especially a very small one -- should avoid, but if it looks like the troop is being compliant, bringing up such a list doesn't address any imminent problem.

The imminent problem is an adult who doesn't want to step in line. Honestly, I don't think that has much to do with the young 1st ASM. I think this has to do with a dad who is insecure about how to take care of his boy and how to relate to others, so he is trying to carve out his niche in this group and do things "just so" for the sake of his personal comfort. Most of us have witnessed this in one form or another.

This matches my understanding top.  The troop is doing a diligent job of following the rules as described above.  If not, of course that's a problem - while there are many "shoulds" in Scouting, the adult supervision requirements as "must" rules.  I get the sense that they are following the rules as required.

I too think the primary issue here is an adult who would be difficult for anyone to manage.  With this kind of person, perhaps an older Scoutmaster might make the adult less likely to push his agenda - but again, perhaps not.  We've seen countless topics about similar adults in other settings.

I think I'd encourage a few things here.

1) be a strong leader.  Make decisions and stick to them.  I've seen this work with adults with strong personalities.  They'll push if they can.

2) have a plan for your role.  Make decisions that advance your plan.  Adults respect adults with a thought out plan.  Sometimes adults like this do what they do because they think it's needed.  Likewise they'll back off once they realize there's a bigger plan in play.

3) be prepared t explain "why".  Hey Bob, I respect that you're trying to help the Scouts get ready, but part of being a Scout led troop is the boys working as a patrol to solve problems together.  When we clear the way for them, they are less likely to need to solver problems and learn.

 

[Ranman328]

5 hours ago, qwazse said:

You describe a pure hypothetical, and one that simply does not apply based on facts in evidence. Every event that @CodyMiller351 described made it clear that two or more 21+ers were present.  It's also a problem if they take the boys pistol-shooting, or quad riding, or if they go swimming without qualified supervision. There's a laundry list of such pitfalls a troop -- especially a very small one -- should avoid, but if it looks like the troop is being compliant, bringing up such a list doesn't address any imminent problem.

The imminent problem is an adult who doesn't want to step in line. Honestly, I don't think that has much to do with the young 1st ASM. I think this has to do with a dad who is insecure about how to take care of his boy and how to relate to others, so he is trying to carve out his niche in this group and do things "just so" for the sake of his personal comfort. Most of us have witnessed this in one form or another.

ok whatever.  You just don't get it!