Eagle Board of Review - Ethics

[JoeBob]

I'm of the opinion that this candidate failed on the Scout Motto: 'Be Prepared'.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

I said it in the other thread about this and I'll say it again here: If pre-marital sex is a disqualifier for Eagle Scout, let me know where to hand in my medal.

Would it be fair to deny one scout their rank because he got his girlfriend pregnant while approving another scout (like me) who just got lucky that his girlfriend didn't get pregnant despite that scout being incredibly stupid and not being careful?

I applaud that scout who maybe became a father way too young but did the right thing and stood by his new family anyway.

Well, I think the discussion has gotten silly. You are justifying bad behavior because you didn't get caught. That's integrity!

Handing in your badge, is that an adult temper tantrum? If you really believe your bad behavior is justification for qualification Eagle, I think you should hand your metal back? 

So let's hash this out, is there any action you feel that a scout might have done to disqualify him from the honor of Eagle like selling drugs, bullying, or threatening physical harm with a weapon? Anything?

The Eagle represents integrity, and as far as I can find, the BSA doesn't list actions of integrity beyond the broad definitions of the Law and Oath.  Are you suggesting that should mean anything goes? If not, just say so so we don't have to ridicule those who might disagree with your personal list of immoral exceptions. 

I have had to deal with Eagle candidates who were caught doing what many in the community consider immoral and the discussion is a lot more complicated than, "It's OK by me, that should make it ok for you".

To the community, the Eagle is an ideal of above average character and integrity. It represents a higher (almost unreachable) idealism that most parents want for their kids. It's not an idealsim of the average person, but of someone who stands above the crowd and models the idealist actions of good citizens and leaders of the community. Once we start denigrating that community expectation with shallow exceptions, then eventually the prestige of the idealism fades into insignificance. The Eagle will have no more honor  to the community than the 2nd Class rank. It will just mean time spent with one of those after school outdoor youth clubs.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but I've had to deal with some of these challenges as a Scoutmaster and I find denigrating others to justify my personal opinion immature, if not hostile. These are serious conflicts for many families. To trivialize behaviors that tear families and communities apart is just as unworthy of the Eagle, if not more. I had to struggle with most of these challenges, not only with the Troop leadership, but the troop parents and district leaders. It's very sobering measuring right, wrong, immorality, and questionable behavior with the community watching. Who am I to decide right and wrong?

Barry

[FireStone]

18 hours ago, Eagledad said:

The Eagle represents integrity, and as far as I can find, the BSA doesn't list actions of integrity beyond the broad definitions of the Law and Oath.  Are you suggesting that should mean anything goes?

No.

[fred8033]

I fear I can see both sides of this in that scout troops are often chartered by churches as extension of their youth program.  As such, their Eagle scouts are poster children for their values.

But, the focus is lost here.  The EBOR should not focus on the fact that he fathered a child.  That's the past.  The question should be how is he fulfilling his new role as a father.  Accepting responsibility.  Pursuing opportunities to be a better father.  Working to be a leader / mentor in this new person's life.

[DuctTape]

The EBOR is not the place. The SM signed off on Req #1; thus as the person whom the committee/CO has conferred authority to determine whether or not the scout has shown scout spirit the requirements were met. If the CO or committee has issue, they should take it up with the SM as they would any other subjective advancement requirement. 

[Eagledad]

20 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

The EBOR is not the place. The SM signed off on Req #1; thus as the person whom the committee/CO has conferred authority to determine whether or not the scout has shown scout spirit the requirements were met. If the CO or committee has issue, they should take it up with the SM as they would any other subjective advancement requirement. 

I wish real life were that simple. What if a mother interrupted the board to explain how this scout bullied their child recently? What if a someone walked through the door to announce the scout had once threatened them with a knife. What if the board discovered the scout was a member of the KKK? 

You still want to hang your reputation on the SM sign off, or prevent an embarrassing injustice? It's the community we have to justify our decisions, not just the scout's family, troop, or even district. I've personally been in the middle of this very situation as a SM, but if you read my initial response on it, I'm saying it really depends on a lot of factors. And some of the responses on this forum to me are kind of scary.

I think Parkman provides some quidance:

From 8.0.1.2 What Should Be Discussed

A Scout may be asked where he learned his skills and who taught him, and what he gained from fulfilling selected requirements. The answers will reveal what he did for his rank. It can be determined, then, if this was what he was supposed to do. Discussion of how he has lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in his home, unit, school, and community should be included. We must remember, however, that though we have high expectations for our members, as for ourselves, we do not insist on perfection. A positive attitude is most important, and that a young man accepts Scouting’s ideals and sets and meets good standards in his life.

Barry

[DuctTape]

Barry, 

I do not disagree with something that comes to light which may be so egregious that it is impossible for the scout to show he " accepts Scouting’s ideals and sets and meets good standards in his life. "

Without insisting on perfection.

How the scout responds to imperfection with a positive attitude " is most important...". 

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

22 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Barry, 

I do not disagree with something that comes to light which may be so egregious that it is impossible for the scout to show he " accepts Scouting’s ideals and sets and meets good standards in his life. "

Without insisting on perfection.

How the scout responds to imperfection with a positive attitude " is most important...". 

Exactly, which is why I posted Parkmans quote. In fact, how a scout responds to imperfection is the foundation of the program. The more bad decisions a scout makes during his scouting career, the more likely he will develop habits to resist bad choices in his future. But, nobody is perfect all the time.

We have to be able to justify our decisions to the community as well as ourselves. We have to be gatekeepers to the prestige, honor and idealism of the Eagle, but that doesn't mean fight to the death with our personal convictions, biases and experiences. There is a lot that has to be considered when conflicts upset obvious choices. 

Barry

Edited November 21, 2018 by Eagledad

[CodyMiller351]

I think I am confused but maybe I just didn't read something right.  Why was the Committee upset?  If the Scout did not reveal that information himself, then why is it on the Scoutmaster to reveal that information to the Committee?  This kid is trying to get his Eagle Scout award, why should I care if he is a dad as well?  If he didn't tell the board, then that's that.  Not that I wouldn't care, actually I would be impressed because I know how much time and effort it takes to get the Eagle award without being a father.  I didn't explain to my Eagle Board every detail of my personal life.  I discussed what actually mattered.  

[John-in-KC]

On 11/19/2018 at 8:41 PM, 69RoadRunner said:

Not tolerating in that I tell the scout the behavior is wrong and expect a change is not the same as permanently denying the rank of Eagle.

I don't condone the actions.  They are wrong.  The action was done, now are you going to say your religious views prevent the scout from earning Eagle?

I'm quite certain if we go through the oath and law, at some point, every Eagle had at least 1 violation.  Every adult passing judgment, too.

I have questions about the Scouts TRUSTWORTHINESS and REVERENCE. I cannot tell you I’d unconditionally clear the Eagle had I been part of the Council appeal team. 

If I were the IH, I’d be telling the COR to have the SM, DE, and UC in my office for a business meeting. Let me be blunt:  The Scoutmaster would no longer be part of this unit. 

[John-in-KC]

If the SM didn’t know a Scout was a parent, what else does he not know about the lad?

[scoutldr]

The SM knew and approved.  The Troop Committee did not and were blindsided by the information in the reference letter, which is how it came to light.  Without that, I expect it would have been a routine EBOR.