Eagle Board of Review (Appeal)

[Thunderbird]

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

If I could up-vote @perdidochas's comment twice, I would. As a scout, I loved helping with other scouts' projects be cause they were role models on how to get into the nitty-gritty and get stuff done.

It was also clear to me that projects weren't hard, and neither were MBs, really. My PL earned his Eagle at age 14. But, I also wasn't about to spend every weekend chipping away at some MB, so I was not going to follow in his footsteps. The difference between me earning Eagle at 14 and earning it at 17.5: cartoons and NASCAR. It's just that simple.

I voted for you.  😀

Edited November 16, 2018 by Thunderbird

[PACAN]

The Scout has the right to appeal and should do so.  Familiarize yourself with Chapter 8 of the Guide to Advancement.   Chapter 9 covers the Eagle Project evaluation. The EBOR owes the scout correspondence on why they made their decision.  Your appeal is based on the reason.

One of the items that does raise some eyebrows is the EP only requires the scout to lead "others" which is defined as 2.  This has been interpreted as that a scout could do his project with his parents (assuming both are BSA Registered).  This makes no sense by many (including me) and may have contributed to the EBOR member questioning how much leadership was done.

What they should have done is since the scout is 14 is to suspend the EBOR and ask the scout to come back with more clarification .  Once they voted, the recourse is appeal.

 

 

 

[Thunderbird]

But t

36 minutes ago, PACAN said:

The Scout has the right to appeal and should do so.  Familiarize yourself with Chapter 8 of the Guide to Advancement.   Chapter 9 covers the Eagle Project evaluation. The EBOR owes the scout correspondence on why they made their decision.  Your appeal is based on the reason.

One of the items that does raise some eyebrows is the EP only requires the scout to lead "others" which is defined as 2.  This has been interpreted as that a scout could do his project with his parents (assuming both are BSA Registered).  This makes no sense by many (including me) and may have contributed to the EBOR member questioning how much leadership was done.

What they should have done is since the scout is 14 is to suspend the EBOR and ask the scout to come back with more clarification .  Once they voted, the recourse is appeal.

 

 

 

The Scout in this case led at least 9 other Scouts.  He just happened to lead them 2 at a time and rotated them in and out.  There's nothing wrong with that (except in the mind of the EBOR member who voted no).

[PACAN]

T-bird...didn't say it was wrong only trying to suggest what the EBOR member might have been thinking.

[Thunderbird]

@PACAN  OK, I misunderstood what you were trying to say.  Sorry!

[MikeS72]

14 hours ago, PACAN said:

One of the items that does raise some eyebrows is the EP only requires the scout to lead "others" which is defined as 2.  This has been interpreted as that a scout could do his project with his parents (assuming both are BSA Registered). 

9.0.2.4 “Give Leadership to Others …”
“Others” means at least two people besides the Scout. Helpers may be involved in Scouting or not, and of  
any age appropriate for the work. In cases where just three people are not able to conduct a project to the satisfaction of a beneficiary, then more would be advisable. It may be, however, that a well-chosen  project conducted by only three provides an impact  
not achievable with those involving more.
One of the purposes for the project is to demonstrate leadership, but this could be considered a more important element, perhaps, for a Scout who has not  yet established himself as a leader. It is for reasons like these that every project must be evaluated, case-by-case, on its merits, and on lessons that will advance the candidate’s growth. Councils, districts, and units shall  not establish requirements for the number of people led, or their makeup, or for time worked on a project. Nor shall they expect Scouts from different backgrounds, with different experiences and different needs, all to work toward a particular standard. The Eagle Scout service project is an individualized experience.

I have added the bold, underlining.  The only person required to be registered members of BSA is the Life Scout whose project it is.  I have seen projects where pretty much everyone in a troop helps, and I have seen projects where none of the additional people are Scouts, but rather friends or team mates.  While I would prefer that those involved are all Scouts, I would never tell someone that they must only use registered persons.

[PACAN]

MikeS72...."The only person required to be registered members of BSA is the Life Scout whose project it is"   Actually no:

9.0.2.14 Risk Management and Eagle Scout Service Projects

All Eagle Scout service projects constitute official Scouting activity and thus are subject to Boy Scouts of America policies and procedures. Projects are considered part of a unit’s program and are treated as such with regard to policies, procedures, and requirements regarding Youth Protection, two-deep leadership, etc.

Unit leadership should be aware of project plans and schedules. The health and safety of those working on Eagle projects must be integrated into project execution. Since an Eagle Scout service project is a unit activity, unit adult leadership has the same responsibility to assure safety in conducting a project as with any other unit activity. The unit leader or unit committee should reject proposals for inherently unsafe projects. The candidate should plan for safe execution, but it must be understood that minors cannot and must not be held responsible for safety concerns.

As with any Scouting activity, the Guide to Safe Scouting applies. The “Sweet 16 of BSA Safety” must also be consulted as an appropriate planning tool. It can be found online at “Scouting Safely,” www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/sweet16.

[Clstlg]

Thank you all for your input and advice.  I have been following the thread, but unable to comment until this morning.

Last night my son received a call from the district leader, who it turns out was the gentleman who told us to appeal.  He told my son that even though in the original meeting they did not have a unanimous decision, there was another meeting where they went over his qualifications and reviewed his project again.  This time he was approved.  He is now an Eagle in waiting.  He was told that the papers will be sent to National as soon as they get a signature from him due to it being a different date that his original BoR date. 

I didn't know they could do that, but I'm not about to look a gift horse in the mouth.  😊
 

Thank you for all of your help.  He was making notes from your comments and was drafting his appeal using your advice when he got the call.

He, and I, appreciate it very much.

[PACAN]

No that is not the proper procedure.  Signature from him?  Boards do not reconvene after they made a decision.  Sounds like they held their own appeal board. Maybe they read this forum topic. 😀 Too bad they put the scout through an unnecessary anxiety.   Did the caller apologize?

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

No that is not the proper procedure.  Signature from him?  Boards do not reconvene after they made a decision.  Sounds like they held their own appeal board. Maybe they read this forum topic. 😀 Too bad they put the scout through an unnecessary anxiety.   Did the caller apologize?

@PACAN, they are backpedaling. They are re-writing the minutes to say the board suspended and reconvened, closing its discussion on a different date.

I would not be surprised if the District Advancement Chair does apologize in person. Hopefully the scouter who raised a ruckus does too. Make sure the members of the board get invited to the court of honor! Let this water run over the dam!

[scoutldr]

Good news, indeed!  Sounds like the District Rep (a role I have served countless times) had a major discussion with the unit leaders and convinced them that an overturn on appeal was inevitable and they chose not to have the egg on their faces.  How they make the paperwork fit is not important now.  Congrats to the new Brother Eagle!

[Eagledad]

3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Good news, indeed!  Sounds like the District Rep (a role I have served countless times) had a major discussion with the unit leaders and convinced them that an overturn on appeal was inevitable and they chose not to have the egg on their faces.  How they make the paperwork fit is not important now.  Congrats to the new Brother Eagle!

I’ve missed something somewhere, were the board members unit leaders or district leaders? And what is a district rep? Sounds like someone with the clout to take names and kick.....knee caps.

Barry

Edited November 18, 2018 by Eagledad

[RememberSchiff]

2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

In my Council, EBOR are convened by the Troop Committee, and a rep from the District Advancement committee serves as a member, and signs the Eagle App on behalf of the Council.  We are there to ensure the EBOR is conducted properly and no inappropriate questions or "retesting" takes place.

We do this as well. Unfortunately, we have a couple of District people who add an essay requirement. for EBOR.   Arrrgh. 

[RememberSchiff]

Straying off-topic, please standby as I split this evolving discussion to the I&P forum, - RS

Thank you for your patience. I created a new topic in I&P

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[perdidochas]

On 11/16/2018 at 2:22 PM, Hawkwin said:

I heard just this week a scouter proudly tell my scout that he occasionally asked a scout to tie a specific knot while during their Eagle BOR. It was all I could do to not comment in light of the recent Scouting Magazine article.

While I wish we could do this at regular BORs, I understand why it's not allowed.  That said, I've been pleasantly surprised at the Eagle candidates I've worked with. Most have been pretty proficient at their knots, even the ones I thought didn't know them well.