Girl Scouts Suing the Boy Scouts

[FireStone]

27 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

For the lawyers, here's the complaint.  All 50 pages of it. https://www.scribd.com/document/392523926/110618-SDNY-Girl-Scouts-v-Boy-Scouts-Complaint?fbclid=IwAR1LmH5X0N1xp28vKinf8_RpsRUHF5LInNhLNLWugrnqsMGGpBkXceriBL0.

I browsed through the Examples section, to see the examples of flyers/materials/marketing that use confusing language. Although I still don't agree with the lawsuit, broadly speaking, the examples are jarring. What were these Packs/Troops/Councils thinking?

"Come talk to me about the Girl Scouts BSA Troops forming in Kirkland!"

"We will be forming a Girl Scout Troop in February."

"Girl Scout Volunteer Opportunity"

Using the Girl Scouts slogan in marketing materials.

Using quotes from Juliette Gordon Low in OFFICIAL BSA marketing materials.

😧

Come on, people. Be a little smarter about how you word things.

[Eagle1993]

41 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Those of you wondering how people can confuse the two organizations are missing the point.  Most of the parents I deal with have never been involved in scouting in any way, shape, or fashion.  Even if you use the terms BSA and GSUSA, they assume they are divisions of some greater single entity.  

I’ve never used the terms BSA or GSUSA with new parents.  I say Cub Scouts and Girl Scouts.  If parent is interested in scouting for little Sally I say, yep, she can join our Cub Scout Pack.  I also say we have a great Girl Scout program at our school and if she is interested I can give you their contact info.  Never had confusion after that.... and I will continue to help GSUSA regardless of some of their tactics.

[Jameson76]

13 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I browsed through the Examples section, to see the examples of flyers/materials/marketing that use confusing language. Although I still don't agree with the lawsuit, broadly speaking, the examples are jarring. What were these Packs/Troops/Councils thinking?

"Come talk to me about the Girl Scouts BSA Troops forming in Kirkland!"

"We will be forming a Girl Scout Troop in February."

"Girl Scout Volunteer Opportunity"

Using the Girl Scouts slogan in marketing materials.

Using quotes from Juliette Gordon Low in OFFICIAL BSA marketing materials.

😧

Come on, people. Be a little smarter about how you word things.

This will be interesting.  I foresee some additional training as part of some consent decree in our future

Maybe a 30 page Powerpoint

[walk in the woods]

8 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

This will be interesting.  I foresee some additional training as part of some consent decree in our future

Maybe a 30 page Powerpoint

and every flier from every unit for every activity will have to be approved by the Commissar of Truth and Language.

[qwazse]

9 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I ... Come on, people. Be a little smarter about how you word things.

Smarter? As in "Boy Scout Troop for Girls"?

2 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

... When we talked about this lawsuit, she agreed that suing over the use of the word "scouts" was wrong.

Refusing to associate with BSA over this is petty and will not accomplish anything. GSUSA is making a difficult situation worse.

In the US, branding is never petty. Real membership (and, therefore, money) is at stake. Heretofore, GSUSA could easily market itself to its target audience as a separate-but-equivalent organization directed toward its non-target audience. In that environment, units and councils having joint boy-scout and girl-scout activities could be encouraged. It was a great way to recruit those boys' sisters!

By BSA changing its brand (unnecessarily, IMHO) and claiming that its linchpin program now provides a separate-but-equivalent program for the same target audience that GS/USA wants to monopolize, it has reinforced the misconception that there is this "over-arching" organization called "scouts".

[LVAllen]

2 hours ago, FireStone said:

I browsed through the Examples section, to see the examples of flyers/materials/marketing that use confusing language. Although I still don't agree with the lawsuit, broadly speaking, the examples are jarring. What were these Packs/Troops/Councils thinking?

"Come talk to me about the Girl Scouts BSA Troops forming in Kirkland!"

"We will be forming a Girl Scout Troop in February."

"Girl Scout Volunteer Opportunity"

Using the Girl Scouts slogan in marketing materials.

Using quotes from Juliette Gordon Low in OFFICIAL BSA marketing materials.

😧

Come on, people. Be a little smarter about how you word things.

If National wants to quote me, I'd be happy to tell them about the GSUSA recruiter who, in 2015, insisted to me that Girl Scouts could now earn Eagle.

[cocomax]

Taking the Boy out of Boy Scouts seems to have caused a lot of trouble. . .

We saw this coming a mile a way and pointed it out.

They should have just called the girls program  "Boy Scouts for Girls".

What exactly am I suppose call girl Scouts BSA troops now?

By dropping "Boy" from the name "Boy Scouts" and forming a girls only program and keeping a boys only program we as scouters need some way to describe a troop as being a boys troop or a girls troop.  The most logical thing to do is to add the noun "boy" or "girl" in front of the new name "Scouts BSA" to tell people that I am talking about an all girl scout troop or an all boy scout troop. This is important to do when recruiting boys and girls to join a troop and this is also were we are going to get into a lot of trouble. 

The only label I have so far to label a new girl "Scouts BSA Troop", is  "girl Scouts BSA Troop".

 It is only logical that scouters will just use the shorthand of "Scouts" (and drop BSA) within their units, but will commonly refer to all "girl Scouts BSA troops" as "girl Scouts" and other all "boy Scout BSA" troops as "boy Scouts". 

 "girl Scouts BSA" almost sounds like "Girl Scouts USA" . . .

. . . and YES,  parents I have been talking to are very confused by all this, this is causing massive confusion already and the girl Scouts BSA units have not even started up yet. 

[NJCubScouter]

20 minutes ago, cocomax said:

Taking the Boy out of Boy Scouts seems to have caused a lot of trouble. . .

We saw this coming a mile a way and pointed it out.

They should have just called the girls program  "Boy Scouts for Girls".

What exactly am I suppose call girl Scouts BSA troops now?

By dropping "Boy" from the name "Boy Scouts" and forming a girls only program and keeping a boys only program we as scouters need some way to describe a troop as being a boys troop or a girls troop.  The most logical thing to do is to add the noun "boy" or "girl" in front of the new name "Scouts BSA" to tell people that I am talking about an all girl scout troop or an all boy scout troop. This is important to do when recruiting boys and girls to join a troop and this is also were we are going to get into a lot of trouble. 

The only label I have so far to label a new girl "Scouts BSA Troop", is  "girl Scouts BSA Troop".

 It is only logical that scouters will just use the shorthand of "Scouts" (and drop BSA) within their units, but will commonly refer to all "girl Scouts BSA troops" as "girl Scouts" and other all "boy Scout BSA" troops as "boy Scouts". 

 "girl Scouts BSA" almost sounds like "Girl Scouts USA" . . .

. . . and YES,  parents I have been talking to are very confused by all this, this is causing massive confusion already and the girl Scouts BSA units have not even started up yet. 

What they should have done is come up with a completely new name for the age 11-17 program for girls, which is what they said (or at least strongly implied) when the changes to Cub Scouting were first announced about a year ago.

But they didn't.  And they left us locals with an issue that, while its an issue, is not insurmountable.  We can say "female" instead of "girl."  It's awkward, but it's not a huge deal.  

[Hawkwin]

As a DL for a female den, I try to never use gender terms. My girls are "scouts." If I start to say, "hey girls" I quickly correct myself and call them "scouts." Using gender terms is a crutch I, as an adult leader, need to learn to overcome. No reason for either boys or girls to think of themselves - or to hear others refer them - as anything other than a scout.

[Hawkwin]

1 hour ago, cocomax said:

The most logical thing to do is to add the noun "boy" or "girl" in front of the new name "Scouts BSA" to tell people that I am talking about an all girl scout troop or an all boy scout troop. This is important to do when recruiting boys and girls to join a troop and this is also were we are going to get into a lot of trouble. 

 

"Here in "Scouts BSA", we have girls only troops and boys only troops. Either way, your child will be joining the largest and oldest scouting organization in America."

Other than during recruitment, would there be a real need to tell someone you are talking about a girls troop vs. a boys troop? Even if there is a need, I am not sure there is a need to refer them as a boys (scout) troop vs a girls (scout) troop. It should already be clear that you are talking about Scouts BSA.

[FireStone]

I can kind of get why there have been problems in talking about girls at the troop level. It's too easy to just roll into the phrase "girl scouts" after being so used to saying "boy scouts" for so long. Even if we're not saying GSUSA, inadvertently saying girl scouts (not Girl Scouts) seems almost natural, even if it is wrong.

At the Cub Scout level it shouldn't even be an issue. And I suspect it's not really, since most of the examples in the lawsuit point to Scouts BSA level marketing and recruiting. For Packs, the real brand equity is in the name "Cub Scouts", and there's no logical reason why anyone would replace that name with "Girl Scouts". Even accidentally, I see no reason why any adults at the Pack level would end up erroneously putting "girl scouts" into a flyer or on a web page. You'd almost have to really be going out of your way to avoid saying "Cub Scouts" just to write "girl scouts" instead, when "Cub Scouts" is really the name you'd want people to see and recognize.

[cocomax]

15 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

"Here in "Scouts BSA", we have girls only troops and boys only troops. Either way, your child will be joining the largest and oldest scouting organization in America."

Other than during recruitment, would there be a real need to tell someone you are talking about a girls troop vs. a boys troop? Even if there is a need, I am not sure there is a need to refer them as a boys (scout) troop vs a girls (scout) troop. It should already be clear that you are talking about Scouts BSA.

I see what you did there,

You can say girl troops and boy troops.

You can say girl only troops and boy only troops.

You can say Scouts.

You can say Scouts BSA.

just. . .   never mix the word Girl with the Scouts. . . ever. . . 

Got it.

 

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, cocomax said:

... They should have just called the girls program  "Boy Scouts for Girls".

Or, decades ago BSA should have insisted that GSUSA call themselves "Guides" the minute GSUSA abandoned the Golden Eaglet. Or again when GSUSA abandoned the First Class. Or when GSUSA decided to abandon the word "scout" entirely for its National Young Woman of Distinction! There is a reason, in many parts, many girls have a negative attitude towards a program that was built with them in mind. Maybe BSA should have made Eagle Scout rank advancement available to GSUSA members who were willing to hew to the requirements in the BSHB.

They didn't. Understandably so. They would have failed for trying.

So we are stuck letting "scout", and "scouting" mean two somewhat different things depending if it's preceded by "Boy" or "Girl." That's the real shame.

But, BSA has time to defer. And I honestly don't think it would cost all that much. BSA could even let GSUSA keep "scouts" exclusively. Change our name to "US Youth Patrols", it's magazine to "Youth's Life",  etc ..., and membership would be no worse. Heck, I'd be fine if next year we were Boy Guides of America (also for Girls), and I was suddenly a Guider in BGAAFG. Patrol me in! I'm working for smiles.

[Treflienne]

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

As a DL for a female den, I try to never use gender terms. My girls are "scouts." If I start to say, "hey girls" I quickly correct myself and call them "scouts." Using gender terms is a crutch I, as an adult leader, need to learn to overcome. No reason for either boys or girls to think of themselves - or to hear others refer them - as anything other than a scout

I sure like that practise.   But that is precisely one of the things that GSUSA asserts that BSA should not do.  GSUSA does not want BSA to call the BSA girls "SCOUTS"

From page 3 of the complaint.

Quote

Only GSUSA has the right to use the GIRL SCOUTS and SCOUTS trademarks with leadership development services for girls.

From page 11 of the document

Quote

With respect to the term SCOUTS and SCOUTING in particular, by virtue of the long history of use of the GIRL SCOUTS trademark by GSUSA, the consuming public has come to recognize SCOUTS and SCOUTING as trademarks that, like the other GS Marks, belong exclusively to GSUSA when used in connection with leadership  programs and related services for girls.

 

[Treflienne]

4 minutes ago, qwazse said:

But, BSA has time to defer. And I honestly don't think it would cost all that much. BSA could even let GSUSA keep "scouts" exclusively. Change our name to "US Youth Patrols", it's magazine to "Youth's Life",  etc ..., and membership would be no worse.

But what about the girls that want to be "scouts"?   They might not mind being called "boy scouts" or even "girl Boy Scouts", but they want to be scouts.