Girl Scouts Suing the Boy Scouts

[fred johnson]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Not sure - but I'd hope not.  

Unless this lawsuit is just a warning shot to remind the BSA not to try and co-opt the term Girl Scouts, I find it very hard to believe this lawsuit is really about the brand confusion.  How many people really get duped into joining the wrong unit.  Other than a few instances of the really clueless, do folks really accidentally sign up for Cub Scouts when they thought that they wanted Daisies or Brownies?  

I think this is really "West Cola" telling "East Cola" not to use the term Cola in the west.

My other thought it that this has nothing to do with stopping the BSA, but instead delaying things.  Imagine if there is an injunction preventing the BSA from using the terms "Scouts BSA" or "Scouts" at all for anything to do with girls for the next 3-5 years while lawsuits work through the courts.  In the spring, no more "Scout Me In" and instead it's the BSA promoting "join our leadership and outdoor educational program for girls"

#1  I agree.  I think it's more about previously agreeing to not compete against each other.  

#2  I'm always amazed someone reads something I wrote. 

[qwazse]

New tagline:

"BSA: where, in 2019, girls can become First Class scouts, just like they used to."

[69RoadRunner]

"BSA - it's not just cookies and crafts."

Nobody tell my wife and daughter that joke, please. I want to live.

[AVTech]

3 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

"BSA - it's not just cookies and crafts."

Nobody tell my wife and daughter that joke, please. I want to live.

In my daughter's case, this isn't a joke. She desperately wants an outdoor program, but the moms in our upper-middle class town just don't do "that sort of thing". So I am stepping up to give her the same opportunities as her now Eagle Scout brother has had. 

[Setonfan]

Thought the video and accompanying document were well done.  I like the fact that the BSA continues to take the high road and remain positive about all other organizations, including the GSUSA.  There have been a lot of negative things thrown at the BSA from their leadership and Board, but at least from our side, nothing but positive talk.  Good to see us stick by the Oath and Law on this one. 

Regardless of name, the girls who are really excited to join in February 2019, will likely join no matter what.  They are looking for the program and I think they are pretty savvy consumers.  Many girls in Venturing are proud to call themselves “Scouts”, even sometimes “Boy Scouts”.  It’s really all about the program.  

[dkurtenbach]

What we have here is a great opportunity for BSA to correct a bad branding decision.  Who are Scouts BSA?  The public doesn't know.  It has no history, no identity.  You have to explain it, and it goes something like this:

"Oh, that is the program for young people age 11 to 18 that used to be called 'Boy Scouts.'  It's just a name change for that program.  The umbrella organization is still the Boy Scouts of America.  The point is, it's really Boy Scouts, just with a new name . . . "  Huh?  What?  You lost me at "program." 

If you stop calling the program "Boy Scouts," you're giving up more than a century of goodwill and American lore surrounding that program. 

The girls interested in joining aren't lobbying to join "Scouts BSA."  They want the Boy Scout program.  The program that is 118 years old.  The program with the historic and highly regarded Eagle Scout rank.  The one where you help little old ladies across the street and tie knots and go backpacking and climbing and shooting.  The demanding program.  They want to be "Boy Scouts," because that name -- those two words together -- has an iconic meaning that is separate and independent from the words themselves; and that meaning has nothing to do with gender.

Because of what that name really means, girls don't care if they will be called Boy Scouts.  They want to be Boy Scouts.  If they had any qualms about that name, they'd join Girl Scouts.

BSA can and should use this lawsuit as cover for changing its mind and going back to the "Boy Scout" brand for its flagship program.

Dan Kurtenbach
Fairfax, VA

[LeCastor]

9 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

Who are Scouts BSA?  The public doesn't know.  It has no history, no identity.

I know what you mean but here is a photo of a uniform from the mid-1970s.

 

[desertrat77]

LeCastor, here's mine. I was at Philmont during the 77 Jambo. 

I recall the eighth edition of the handbook had Scout Handbook on the front in big letters and Boy Scouts of America in smaller type near the lower right corner.  

 

 

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, LeCastor said:

I know what you mean but here is a photo of a uniform from the mid-1970s.

 

16 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

LeCastor, here's mine. I was at Philmont during the 77 Jambo. 

I recall the eighth edition of the handbook had Scout Handbook on the front in big letters and Boy Scouts of America in smaller type near the lower right corner. 

Scout BSA does not equal Scouts BSA, although it may set precedent that the BSA has been using trade names without "Boy" for decades.

However, as we found with "Scouting/USA"; while you guys were each proudly a Scout BSA, there were probably behind-the-scenes protests (possibly even threats of law suit?) by GS/USA.

[desertrat77]

16 minutes ago, qwazse said:

 

Scout BSA does not equal Scouts BSA, although it may set precedent that the BSA has been using trade names without "Boy" for decades.

However, as we found with "Scouting/USA"; while you guys were each proudly a Scout BSA, there were probably behind-the-scenes protests (possibly even threats of law suit?) by GS/USA.

True, it doesn't equal, but the campfire scuttlebutt and hints in official literature indicated that indeed, the BSA was leaning to going coed at that time. 

[LeCastor]

52 minutes ago, qwazse said:

while you guys were each proudly a Scout BSA

 

1 hour ago, desertrat77 said:

LeCastor, here's mine. I was at Philmont during the 77 Jambo. 

Sorry to mis-lead you two.  I joined as a Bear Cub in 1987. The uniform shirt I shared belongs to a recently-retired Scoutmaster from our area.

35 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

but the campfire scuttlebutt and hints in official literature indicated that indeed, the BSA was leaning to going coed at that time. 

Yes, @desertrat77, our Scout Executive shared that with us a few days before we all learned of this lawsuit. I think BSA was trying to pave the way for merger in the 1970s and "Scout BSA" was a way to make it easier? 

[desertrat77]

10 minutes ago, LeCastor said:

 

Sorry to mis-lead you two.  I joined as a Bear Cub in 1987. The uniform shirt I shared belongs to a recently-retired Scoutmaster from our area.

Yes, @desertrat77, our Scout Executive shared that with us a few days before we all learned of this lawsuit. I think BSA was trying to pave the way for merger in the 1970s and "Scout BSA" was a way to make it easier? 

Wow, do I feel old!

I agree, the BSA was paving the way towards coed, and the Scout BSA was a hint, prepping the battlefield, if you will.  I don't recall hearing about a merger (interesting to mull over now) back then, but I definitely remember conversations at the unit level, and letters to Pedro in BL, about the possibility of letting girls join. 

[carebear3895]

15 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

If you stop calling the program "Boy Scouts," you're giving up more than a century of goodwill and American lore surrounding that program. 

Good thing they are keeping the name "Boy Scouts of America" then....

I guarantee nobody is going to stop calling boys in khaki shirts and green short Boy Scouts, even if the program name changes.

[RememberSchiff]

My recollection  of Scouting/USA , "boy" was removed as it was considered a slur to the minority males being recruited. I did some wiki research and found more. (I had forgotten? )

Scouting/USA was a "communicative name" chosen by the Boy Scouts of America in 1971 in an effort to rebrand itself.^[1][2] The Scouting/USA symbol was unveiled at its biennial National Council meeting. ^[3] The organization retained the name Boy Scouts of America as its legal name, but planned to use the new name on literature, billboards, insignia, business cards and stationery and for most other promotional material.^[1] They abandoned this effort by 1980.

With the inclusion of girls in the Exploring, and in an effort to appeal to underserved communities (i.e. Latino, African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and Native Hawaiians) the national headquarters said, "The word 'boy' is objectionable to minorities, our young adult (male and female) leaders and naturally to the young women enrolled in our coed Exploring program."^[1][5]

Additionally, the rebranding was meant to identify the organization with the country it worked in, the United States, rather than a continent, America; and be inclusive of all of its programs Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Exploring.^[1][6]

Despite some reservations among its members and the community, the BSA went ahead with the rebranding. "Forward Together/Scouting USA" became the theme of the 1977 National Scout Jamboree.^[7] The BSA also tried to reinforce this by emphasizing that everyone in Scouting should be moving forward together.^[8]

^...

The Girl Scouts were not happy as reported in Feb 23,1977 by New York Times.

“The identity of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts is pretty firmly fixed in the minds of Americans,” a spokesman for the Girl Scouts of the United States of America said. “Nov if you use just the term ‘Scouting,’ people might think it's one big organization, and that ain't so.”

The spokesman said that the concern of the Girl Scouts was that contribuitions and other support for the girls might diminish. “People may think that if they give to ‘Scouting’ that's taking care of the girls,” the spokesman said, But that won't be the case.”

Executives and lawyers of the Girl Scouts had tried to talk the Boy Scouts of America out of using the new name, but to no avail, the spokesman said.

The spokesman for Scouting/USA said the name change had been under study for seven years. There was some internal opposition, he said, but three years ago the national board gave its approval by a vote of 70 to 1.

 Leaders with the GSUSA accused the BSA of chauvinism, moving forward with the name change without consideration to how it would affect the girls.^[4] The GSUSA also claimed that the public would assume that GSUSA was a part of Scouting/USA, which it was not.^[4][10]

Pittsburgh Press March 20, 1977

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/18039971/scoutingusa_response/

 

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it - George Santayana 

It's like deja vu all over again  - Yogi Berra

 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[dkurtenbach]

11 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

I guarantee nobody is going to stop calling boys in khaki shirts and green short Boy Scouts, even if the program name changes.

It isn't about what the boys in khaki shirts and green shorts will be called, it is about what the girls in khaki shirts and green shorts will be called.  BSA did make the right call in realizing that for girls to be full and equal participants in the 120-year tradition of what is currently called the Boy Scout program, the terminology has to be the same for the girls and the boys.  That is, if boys are "Boy Scouts" but girls doing the same program are called something else, the perception will be that the girls have a separate (and not equal) program.  But BSA got hung up on the gender aspect of the word "boy" as applied to members, rather than the bigger and broader meaning of "Boy Scouts" as the name of an iconic outdoor-oriented, patriotic, character-building program.  Focusing on the gender aspect of the name rather than the power of the brand got us the bland, boring, corporate "Scouts BSA" - a failure of vision and imagination.