Girl Scouts Suing the Boy Scouts

[MattR]

3 hours ago, cocomax said:

Will it be great with Outdoorsy women taking the role of scout master for these girls. . . 

I was worried about that, as was our troop when asked about starting a girls troop. In fact, there are a number of moms of web 1's that do a lot of outdoor stuff and are very interested. They're all younger moms, though. (When I meet parents in their 30's it really makes me feel old.) Anyway, I said I'd help start the troop assuming that there would be a mom taking over as SM after a year and wanted to do the outdoor program. We have a half year or so to figure things out.

I think it will help the patrol method and I can't think of a better way to illustrate different patrols doing different things then having different SM and SPL as well as patrols with different calendars. They might drive to the campsite together (or to different campsites) but they'll be doing different activities.

[Eagledad]

8 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

Excellent news, Qwazse!   In my neck of the prairie, many units plus district/council are bent on holding events as close to man-made plumbing as possible. 

I’m skeptical gentlemen, the only time I’ve seen Troop Scouts in the last 20 years  dig, umm “man-made” plumbing facilities was on high adventure trips in the wilderness. Brag all you want, but scouting hasn’t gained adventure just because the older Scouts used a trowel once a year.

As for the BSA adding more adventure, I believe National figured it out. Badon Powell was wrong; scouting develops character and leadership simply by sending Scouts to Philmont once a year to backpack. That patrol method thing is a myth. Next year all troops are required spend a day at Six Flags. The Eagle is saved.

Barry

[Jahaza]

3 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

The lack of actual requirement for anything related to outdoors beyond First Class as well. 

Camping merit badge is still required and so is outdoor cooking (both camp and trail) for the Cooking merit badge.

While some outdoor requirements have gone away since I became an Eagle  in 1999 (like thr option for the more indoor Sustainability instead of the outdoor oriented Environmental Science), Cooking, with its outdoor element, only became required in 2014.

[ParkMan]

5 hours ago, cocomax said:

So. . .  I am waiting to see what happens when the BSA for girl troops start up. . . 

Will it be great with Outdoorsy women taking the role of scout master for these girls. . . 

or will the BSA for Girls suffer the same fate as GSUSA with leaders that will not camp or hike and then just fall back to the class room style advancement centered program that many troops cling to because check lists are the easy way to run things.

The weak spot will be the adult leaders of the girls and finding the right women that can do that job, it will be a hard job, a drama minefield. 

The promise of Scouts BSA isn't that there are outdoorsy mom that serve as Scoutmasters.  It that it no longer matters that it's a male or female Scouter who serves as Scoutmaster.  Scouts no longer cares what your gender is.

[qwazse]

4 hours ago, ParkMan said:

The promise of Scouts BSA isn't that there are outdoorsy mom that serve as Scoutmasters.  It that it no longer matters that it's a male or female Scouter who serves as Scoutmaster.  Scouts no longer cares what your gender is.

Only partially true. It matters to Scouts BSA if just two men leading a troop for girls, 

[qwazse]

7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I’m skeptical gentlemen, the only time I’ve seen Troop Scouts in the last 20 years  dig, umm “man-made” plumbing facilities was on high adventure trips in the wilderness. Brag all you want, but scouting hasn’t gained adventure just because the older Scouts used a trowel once a year. ...

@Eagledad, Would you like me to invite you on our next hike into back-country? This fall we set up camp with 11-13 year olds. There were three other troops and a crew in the vicinity. No pre-fab latrines anywhere.

@cocomax and @Jahaza I take issue with citing Eagle requirements as an indication of more/less outdoor activity. All of the outdoor-related Eagle requirements could be earned before a scout earns 1st class and a scout could avoid camping for decades. Moreover, a minority of scouts earn Eagle. In the past that minority was slimmer, and yet there is the impression that troops back then did more camping.

My thesis is that the methods of scouting are independent; therefore, you can't bribe scouts with advancement to manipulate them to spend nights outdoors. They will do it, or they won't. Now, although they are independent, they are synergistic. Advancement helps scouts learn to do outdoors and patrols safely. (And outdoors gives opportunity to build patrols and practice skills for advancement.) What I think our girls are really after is that synergy.

Edited December 12, 2018 by qwazse
Added a parenthetical comment.

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Only partially true. It matters to Scouts BSA if just two men leading a troop for girls, 

I think you're conflating issues here.  Yes there are YPT rules.  The point is that we shouldn't fall into the same trap we all describe the GSUSA of doing - assuming the women need to the leaders of troops with scouts who are girls. 

Aside from YPT rules, I envision a lot of fathers who are looking for ways to participate in the Scouting activities of their daughters.  If my daughter wants to join a troop I'll volunteer.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

@Eagledad, Would you like me to invite you on our next hike into back-country? This fall we set up camp with 11-13 year olds. There were three other troops and a crew in the vicinity. No pre-fab latrines anywhere.

I would enjoy that very much, but not to observe your scouts experiencing true back country camping. I would just enjoy being with friendly like minded company. 

Barry 

[NJCubScouter]

10 hours ago, Eagledad said:

As for the BSA adding more adventure, I believe National figured it out. Badon Powell was wrong; scouting develops character and leadership simply by sending Scouts to Philmont once a year to backpack. That patrol method thing is a myth. Next year all troops are required spend a day at Six Flags. The Eagle is saved.

Such cynicism in one so young.   

[DuctTape]

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I would enjoy that very much, but not to observe your scouts experiencing true back country camping. I would just enjoy being with friendly like minded company. 

Barry 

I think it would be awesome if a bunch of us gathered around a real campfire someday.

[cocomax]

I have a  daughter that would love to go hiking with a scout group. I have been working with her GSUSA troop for the last year to make that happen and completely failed.

I have been talking to the moms and girls  in the troop about what they would think of going on a car camping trip or an overnight 5 mile hike.  I asked my daughter to talk to the other girls about it.  Well it seems none of the moms are interested in letting their daughters go hiking and are not really into camping. My daughter seems to be the only one interested in doing outdoor scouting stuff. I find it really strange, we live in the mountains, these are mountain girls and moms, but there is no interest hiking or camping, outside of my family.

Maybe GSUSA is delivering exactly the program that most girls and moms want.

If you took all the girls and moms from our GSUSA troop and put them in a BSA troop, they are all still the same people, they will not magically grow a love of camping and hiking.

I think the greatest road block to girl BSA troops going camping or hiking will be the YPT rules, we will just will not be able to field the adults needed to get the job done.

If my Boy Scout Troop, had to live under the YPT rules for girl BSA troops we would vanish like all the Venturing crews in my area have.  

Edited December 12, 2018 by cocomax

[Treflienne]

42 minutes ago, cocomax said:

My daughter seems to be the only one interested in doing outdoor scouting stuff.

My daughter also had that situation in two of the GSUSA troops she was in over the years.

43 minutes ago, cocomax said:

Maybe GSUSA is delivering exactly the program that most girls and moms want.

I think so,  at least for Daisies, Brownies, Juniors.    In our area, very very few girls continue past Juniors (5th grade.)

43 minutes ago, cocomax said:

If you took all the girls and moms from our GSUSA troop and put them in a BSA troop, they are all still the same people, they will not magically grow a love of camping and hiking.

But that is not what is happening.  None of the other girls from daughter's GSUSA troop are planning to join BSA.   I think that at least half of the interested girls in our prospective girls troops were never in GSUSA.  I think that only a few currently are in GSUSA.

48 minutes ago, cocomax said:

I think the greatest road block to girl BSA troops going camping or hiking will be the YPT rules, we will just will not be able to field the adults needed to get the job done.

We have yet to see.   Under BSA rules all but one of the adults can be men.   And it being BSA maybe the dads will feel welcome (unlike sometimes happens in GSUSA).  So a bunch of enthusiastic dads just need to find a couple of moms/much-older-sisters/older-girl-cousins of the girls who want to take turns going along on the outings.

[Eagle94-A1]

53 minutes ago, cocomax said:

I think the greatest road block to girl BSA troops going camping or hiking will be the YPT rules, we will just will not be able to field the adults needed to get the job done.

If my Boy Scout Troop, had to live under the YPT rules for girl BSA troops we would vanish like all the Venturing crews in my area have.  

I agree 110% with this. My old CO has been looking for females to step up and become the SM and ASMs . They have gotten no interest in those roles, only committee roles. Irony is that the two ladies who names keep popping up as potential female Scouters for the all girls troop all believe that going coed is a mistake on the BSA's part, and that GSUSA should have improved their program to meet the needs of the girls.

[HashTagScouts]

12 hours ago, Jahaza said:

Camping merit badge is still required and so is outdoor cooking (both camp and trail) for the Cooking merit badge.

While some outdoor requirements have gone away since I became an Eagle  in 1999 (like thr option for the more indoor Sustainability instead of the outdoor oriented Environmental Science), Cooking, with its outdoor element, only became required in 2014.

@qwazse beat me to it- a great number of the Eagle scouts I have come to know from recent years had completed Camping/Cooking MB requirements by the time they were Star.   

[Jahaza]

4 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

@qwazse beat me to it- a great number of the Eagle scouts I have come to know from recent years had completed Camping/Cooking MB requirements by the time they were Star.   

In that case, I'm left not really understanding what you mean by "The lack of actual requirement for anything related to outdoors beyond First Class as well."

But there have never been such requirements other than merit badges, unless you count the brief period when the participation requirement read "While a Life Scout, work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of your unit" 1958-1965.