Girl Scouts Suing the Boy Scouts

[qwazse]

13 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

But what about the girls that want to be "scouts"?   They might not mind being called "boy scouts" or even "girl Boy Scouts", but they want to be scouts.

The girls want us (be we BSA or GSUSA) ... to guide them in fulfilling a vision of the pinnacle scouting experience: hiking and camping independently with their mates. By any other name, that remains the promise of scouting.

[Sniktaw]

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

As a DL for a female den, I try to never use gender terms. My girls are "scouts." If I start to say, "hey girls" I quickly correct myself and call them "scouts." Using gender terms is a crutch I, as an adult leader, need to learn to overcome. No reason for either boys or girls to think of themselves - or to hear others refer them - as anything other than a scout.

What's wrong with a boy thinking of himself as a boy, or a girl thinking of herself as a girl? They don't become genderless when the Scout meeting begins. 

[Treflienne]

11 minutes ago, Sniktaw said:

What's wrong with a boy thinking of himself as a boy, or a girl thinking of herself as a girl? They don't become genderless when the Scout meeting begins.

A girl was born a girl.

A girl chose to be a scout and made a solemn promise "On my honor . . ."

By calling her a scout we remind her of her oath.

[qwazse]

16 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

A girl was born a girl.

A girl chose to be a scout and made a solemn promise "On my honor . . ."

By calling her a scout we remind her of her oath.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but as we move into the 11-18 year old range, these nuances of language will mean precious little.

I call my scouts, boys, sirs, gentlemen, kind sirs, Mr. ___ and ___, etc .... then remind them that this is a youth led movement, act accordingly.

If we call girls girls and expect them to lead just as we expect boys to lead, they will respect us for our effort.

If we call them scouts, but expect ourselves to lead, they will not.

 

[Eagledad]

As a Conditional Scouter, I don’t know why this silliness is so hard for new scouters.  

Scouts of the troop age can see through adults’ words and wording. What they want from adults is respect. Respect your Scouts as adults, they will respect your experience of life and wisdom.

Barry

[Treflienne]

7 hours ago, qwazse said:

these nuances of language will mean precious little

 

6 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Scouts of the troop age can see through adults’ words and wording. What they want from adults is respect.

I'll agree that words without actions mean little.

And yet names do matter.

I'll certainly admit that names (like uniforms) matter much more to some people than to other people.

But a name, like a uniform, is a symbol of belonging.

To be a "scout" (or a "guide" which is historically a synonym for a female scout) is to feel a kinship to all the other scouts/guides around the world in the movement started by Baden-Powell.    A different name like "pioneer" or "young pioneer" would have very very different connotations.

 

[WisconsinMomma]

I'm going to go slightly off topic but since this is on Page 8, what the heck! 

In our area, our Boy Scout Troop would often rent sites at Girl Scout camps.  But since the BSA has allowed girl membership, the Girl Scout camps do not want the BSA around.  That probably makes sense, except, they are losing the rental money!  It's a little bit too bad because all camps need money to keep running. 

[ParkMan]

10 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I'm going to go slightly off topic but since this is on Page 8, what the heck! 

In our area, our Boy Scout Troop would often rent sites at Girl Scout camps.  But since the BSA has allowed girl membership, the Girl Scout camps do not want the BSA around.  That probably makes sense, except, they are losing the rental money!  It's a little bit too bad because all camps need money to keep running. 

That's a bummer!

Our Cub Scout pack did the same thing.  The local Girl Scout camps are here are awesome.  Great size for a pack camping trip too.

[Eagle94-A1]

13 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

In our area, our Boy Scout Troop would often rent sites at Girl Scout camps.  But since the BSA has allowed girl membership, the Girl Scout camps do not want the BSA around.  That probably makes sense, except, they are losing the rental money!  It's a little bit too bad because all camps need money to keep running. 

YOU GOT GIRL SCOUT CAMPS IN YOUR AREA?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!  😁

Seriously though, in my neck of the woods, GSUSA have been closing down camps left and right. There are a handful of GS camps in the entire state. My BSA council alone has 5 camps.

[Eagledad]

9 hours ago, Treflienne said:

 

I'll agree that words without actions mean little.

And yet names do matter.

I'll certainly admit that names (like uniforms) matter much more to some people than to other people.

But a name, like a uniform, is a symbol of belonging.

To be a "scout" (or a "guide" which is historically a synonym for a female scout) is to feel a kinship to all the other scouts/guides around the world in the movement started by Baden-Powell.    A different name like "pioneer" or "young pioneer" would have very very different connotations.

 

I understand your point.

A sense of belonging is personal and has to be developed. Oh, there is that initial romance of joining something with a reputation that is bigger than life, but that romance can die quickly if the experience doesn’t live up to the hype. The BSA looses more Scouts in the first 6 months of the troop experience than any other age. Sense of belonging has to be earned by both parties.

All I’m saying is Scouts can see the difference between using titles for political correctness or for personal growth. It’s not the words, it’s the body language. And on the forum (not you); it’s the tone, not the words.

Barry

 

[cocomax]

Scouters can be trained to toe the line when it comes to political correct language. . .

But the boys, girls, moms and dads are going to be much harder to control, I can set an example, but I am going to be a very poor language policeman. 

I can see scouters referring to BSA girl troops as girl troops to be political correct, but the boys, girls, moms and dads will mostly refer to them as girl scouts.

The massive bolder BSA national has started rolling down the hill will not be slowed down much by a single power point slide.

 

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, cocomax said:

Scouters can be trained to toe the line when it comes to political correct language. . .

But the boys, girls, moms and dads are going to be much harder to control, I can set an example, but I am going to be a very poor language policeman. 

I can see scouters referring to BSA girl troops as girl troops to be political correct, but the boys, girls, moms and dads will mostly refer to them as girl scouts.

The massive bolder BSA national has started rolling down the hill will not be slowed down much by a single power point slide.

 

I've gotta wonder though.  How my accountability does the BSA really have for individual Scouters & units.  They could remove us I suppose like they do for YPT violations - but that seems pretty extreme because I make a recruiting flier and mis-use the term "Girl Scouts".

[TLK]

Lurker here, but with a great interest in this topic. 

I read the entire complaint. BSA is in trouble and very likely will lose. Treble damages are a big deal, if so ordered by the Court. If the issue were reversed, I am sure the BSA would be doing just what the GSUSA is doing. Indeed, we appear to have acted without fully considring the downside.  Somewhere in Irving, the ball was dropped, seriously.  As a Leader out here in the bushes, and one that tries to stay informed, there was (and still is) a serious lack of guidance that has lead to the allegations presented in the complaint.  The message to the Council Execs on trademark issues was sent to them in April.  The content of that message, if appropriately distributed and strongly emphasized, would have gone a long ways in preventing the kinds of things alleged in the complaint. I understand that the Chartered Partners are still not scheduled to receive full guidance documents until the end of November, which, IMHO, is way late.  My Troop is in the throes of deciding how to handle this entire change to the program.  Tough times for Scouting.

[RememberSchiff]

@TLK  welcome to scouter.com

[qwazse]

@TLK, thanks for lurking no more.

 I agree that the name change is rushed and not needed at all. All we needed to know was that concerned adults could be permitted to form BSA Packs for girls, Dens for girls, and Troops for girls. Three new programs to supplement existing programs and meet post-modern nomadic parents desires. And an explanation of rules and minimum coverage. New literature, logos, and brands could wait a year or two.

However, suits are always made to sound like they are a sure thing. That's nothing that strong legal teams can't pick apart. Problem is, every dime dropped on legal fees is one removed from some boy's or girl's scouting experience.