New Scouts BSA marketing video

[The Latin Scot]

I don't even have words to express how upsetting it is to see videos like this trying to make the admittance of girls into Scouting look like some wonderful thing. And the mess it has caused with Youth Protection issues is only the tip of the iceberg; the organization of the Boy Scouts of America is coming apart at the seams, and there is no uniform on Earth that will withstand the impending troubles that I forsee coming to it down the road. Every time I see a video, advertisement or promotional image of girls in Scout uniforms, my stomach knots up. 

I believe in Scouting. I believe it has the power to save boys from a world that increasingly wants to demean, disenfranchise, and even destroy the masculine identity. But I do not believe the Boy Scouts of America will survive that battle as it opens the doors of its membership too wide, letting in agendas that will only harm the young men of our nation. And as it loses that original, deeply traditional vision of Scouting For Boys, which for over one hundred years it managed to preserve, it will eventually lose the power it once wielded to effect such tremendous good in our society. Scouting works, but it has to be done right. The BSA caved to public outcry, and the mobocracy of public outcry and media rhetoric will continue to warp the fabric of its nature until eventually it will no longer be a Scouting organization - just a generic youth one.

Girls deserve the best we have to offer. Boys do too. But Scouting cannot serve two masters, and as the needs of boys and girls demand very different approaches to best nurture their very different natures, it will be impossible for Scouting to serve them both equally.

I am sure my comments will be attacked and challenged. I care little. Truth is not subjective, and I hold too it, regardless of whatever rhetoric or public opinions may be tossed my way.

From the Handbook: "A Scout is brave. A Scout can face danger although he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him."

[shortridge]

@The Latin Scot, I disagree with you 1,000 percent. However, all that aside, this isn’t I&P, and this thread isn’t for debating the merits of girls in Scouts BSA. I&P is the appropriate forum for sharing your feelings about masculinity. This is the open program forum.

Do you have specific thoughts on the marketing video separate from your overall opinions about the new Scouts BSA?

Thanks!

Edited November 3, 2018 by shortridge

[The Latin Scot]

I am not talking about masculinity. You missed the point of my earlier comment, so I will make it clear for you.

I am talking about Scouting, and what this video is trying to communicate about it. This video wants people to believe that the program of Scouting, as it currently exists, will have just the same effect on girls as it does on boys. I think that is absolutely false. I think the video is an attempt to convince parents that the traditional Scouting program can be made to fit girls just as well as it fits boys. But I believe girls and boys are inherently different, and a program that has been developed over a hundred years to match the nature of how boys learn and develop will not yield the same benefits for young women as it does for young men. So I am saddened by a video that uses values that are desirable for both - curiosity, exploration, boldness, et cetera - to suggest that the PROGRAM by which these values are taught will work just as well for one as it does for the other. I don't believe that.

I find the video manipulative, and I don't agree with its agenda. I think it is perpetuating the lie that boys and girls are the same, or worse, interchangeable. A pretty, colorful video with trite music and a few sunny faces is a poor mask for the ulterior motives which I believe underlie its creation. But it is very craftily made - sincere young ladies having a wonderful adventure, 'fun,' kitschy music, adventure, beautiful vistas - this film was very carefully crafted to elicit a response. As a marketing tool, it is extremely effective and well-thought-out. And that's just what I find so frustrating about it. I am sure it will be effective in drawing in many families who subscribe to the ideology behind it, a line of thinking I cannot endorse because I love Scouting too much to accept it. It's hard to watch an organization you love go off the rails, but that's just what I am grieving when I see this kind of marketing ploy.

I apologize if some find this offensive. But I can't apologize for what I feel is right. And again, this is not off-topic. This thread is about the video, and that is exactly what I am discussing here. 

[SSF]

3 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

I am not talking about masculinity. You missed the point of my earlier comment, so I will make it clear for you.

I am talking about Scouting, and what this video is trying to communicate about it. This video wants people to believe that the program of Scouting, as it currently exists, will have just the same effect on girls as it does on boys. I think that is absolutely false. I think the video is an attempt to convince parents that the traditional Scouting program can be made to fit girls just as well as it fits boys. But I believe girls and boys are inherently different, and a program that has been developed over a hundred years to match the nature of how boys learn and develop will not yield the same benefits for young women as it does for young men. So I am saddened by a video that uses values that are desirable for both - curiosity, exploration, boldness, et cetera - to suggest that the PROGRAM by which these values are taught will work just as well for one as it does for the other. I don't believe that.

I find the video manipulative, and I don't agree with its agenda. I think it is perpetuating the lie that boys and girls are the same, or worse, interchangeable. A pretty, colorful video with trite music and a few sunny faces is a poor mask for the ulterior motives which I believe underlie its creation. But it is very craftily made - sincere young ladies having a wonderful adventure, 'fun,' kitschy music, adventure, beautiful vistas - this film was very carefully crafted to elicit a response. As a marketing tool, it is extremely effective and well-thought-out. And that's just what I find so frustrating about it. I am sure it will be effective in drawing in many families who subscribe to the ideology behind it, a line of thinking I cannot endorse because I love Scouting too much to accept it. It's hard to watch an organization you love go off the rails, but that's just what I am grieving when I see this kind of marketing ploy.

I apologize if some find this offensive. But I can't apologize for what I feel is right. And again, this is not off-topic. This thread is about the video, and that is exactly what I am discussing here. 

We may disagree on things related to Star Wars, but I couldn't agree with you more strongly on this. Very well said.

[SSF]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

@The Latin Scot, I disagree with you 1,000 percent. However, all that aside, this isn’t I&P, and this thread isn’t for debating the merits of girls in Scouts BSA. I&P is the appropriate forum for sharing your feelings about masculinity. This is the open program forum.

Do you have specific thoughts on the marketing video separate from your overall opinions about the new Scouts BSA?

Thanks!

This is ultimately an open forum...or at least it's supposed to be.

[ParkMan]

I've got a 9 year old daughter and a 14 year old daughter.  They are both active Girl Scouts.  This video captures exactly the things that they like about Girl Scouts now.  Hiking, canoeing, archery, climbing, roasting marshmallows, camping. 

If anyone thinks this is too masculine for girls, then you've not met my daughters, their friends, or their Girl Scouts troops.

A very good video.

Edited November 3, 2018 by ParkMan
typo

[ParkMan]

3 hours ago, shortridge said:

@The Latin Scot, I disagree with you 1,000 percent. However, all that aside, this isn’t I&P, and this thread isn’t for debating the merits of girls in Scouts BSA. I&P is the appropriate forum for sharing your feelings about masculinity. This is the open program forum.

Do you have specific thoughts on the marketing video separate from your overall opinions about the new Scouts BSA?

Thanks!

I would very much welcome a policy decision by this moderators of this forum that posts continuing to debate the merits of girls in the BSA get moved to I&P.

I'm perfectly fine that you all continue to debate it.  I just would like to have a place focus on the mechanics and best practices of the Scouting program itself.

[shortridge]

8 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

I believe it has the power to save boys from a world that increasingly wants to demean, disenfranchise, and even destroy the masculine identity.

Actually, you were talking about masculinity.

Your points all have to do with the fundamental changing nature of the Scouting movement in the United States, and nothing to do with the modern Scouting program.

4 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I would very much welcome a policy decision by this moderators of this forum that posts continuing to debate the merits of girls in the BSA get moved to I&P.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but understanding is that there has been such a decision. All the threads that I’ve seen discussing the creation of Scouts BSA have been in I&P. That is the appropriate place for @The Latin Scot and others who want to debate and express their opinions, ideology, and viewpoints. This is not that kind of thread.

I&P-style discussions about the fundamental nature of the program should not consume program threads. The program is here; girls are here. Those of us who are working in this new program should not have to constantly justify and respond to complaints about the program’s very existence when we are trying to do our jobs. That’s what I&P threads are for.

[qwazse]

7 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I've got a 9 year old daughter and a 14 year old daughter.  They are both active Girl Scouts.  This video captures exactly the things that they like about Girl Scouts now.  Hiking, canoeing, archery, climbing, roasting marshmallows, camping. 

If anyone thinks this is too masculine for girls, then you've not met my daughters, their friends, or their Girl Scouts troops.

A very good video.

A good video that sells GS/USA as easily as it does BSA4G. You've made my earlier point.

Regarding the down-votes. As much as I -- believing co-equal and even co-Ed scouting helps young men and women develop healthier roles than stark sex segregation, and believing BSA is the best suited to do that -- disagree with @SSF and @The Latin Scot, I strongly disagree with @shortridge and @ParkMan wanting to relegate dissent to I&P.

[shortridge]

12 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I strongly disagree with @shortridge and @ParkMan wanting to relegate dissent to I&P.

I appreciate your candor, but ask you and any mods reading this to consider this with deep thought.

Many threads from here on out will be about the Scouts BSA program and discuss girls. They will be about YPT, adult leadership, girls’ uniforms, the girls’ handbook, linked troop operations, girls at summer camp, recruiting and marketing to girls, and much, much more.

If those threads on aspects of the Scouts BSA program and unit leadership can be detailed and taken over by people who simply oppose the direction of the program, that will be to the severe detriment of this forum and its users. There is a place for threads from people opposing the direction of the program, and that’s I&P.

In previous years, threads on inclusion of girls and gays - and those of us advocating for the same - were relegated to I&P. Those topics were not generally permitted in the regular program sub forums. The same principle should apply now. The program has changed, and that’s that.

Edited November 3, 2018 by shortridge

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

In previous years, threads on inclusion of girls and gays - and those of us advocating for the same - were relegated to I&P. Those topics were not generally permitted in the regular program sub forums. The same principle should apply now. The program has changed, and that’s that.

Ah, finally. A profound statement that will be used in a lot of future discussions.

Barry

[The Latin Scot]

5 hours ago, shortridge said:

Actually, you were talking about masculinity.

Your points all have to do with the fundamental changing nature of the Scouting movement in the United States, and nothing to do with the modern Scouting program.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but understanding is that there has been such a decision. All the threads that I’ve seen discussing the creation of Scouts BSA have been in I&P. That is the appropriate place for @The Latin Scot and others who want to debate and express their opinions, ideology, and viewpoints. This is not that kind of thread.

I&P-style discussions about the fundamental nature of the program should not consume program threads. The program is here; girls are here. Those of us who are working in this new program should not have to constantly justify and respond to complaints about the program’s very existence when we are trying to do our jobs. That’s what I&P threads are for.

You fundamentally misunderstand my comments, and I must confess I feel as though you are drawing out false statements about my posts while putting words and ideas into my ideology that are not my own, all of which is equally off-topic when compared to with words as you perceive them.

I do not want to debate opinions, ideology, or viewpoints. I am explaining how I feel about the video. That will inherently include how it makes me feel about the direction Scouting is going. I have no desire to debate anything; in fact I would prefer to avoid such discussion. It's plain that not everybody will like the video, and not everybody will hate it. But we must be willing to hear both sides - those who like it, AND those who hate it. And I do note that you haven't expressed concern over those with positive reactions to it, only mine, which oppose your views. That is not fair. Eliminate my comments and you must therefore eliminate any positive perceptions as well. Are you prepared to do that?

Edited November 3, 2018 by The Latin Scot

[shortridge]

29 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Ah, finally. A profound statement that will be used in a lot of future discussions.

Barry

Yes, Barry. It’s the same love-it-or-leave-it line that people on the anti-gay, anti-girl side spouted at me and mine for so many years when we were advocating for inclusion.

[shortridge]

36 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

Eliminate my comments and you must therefore eliminate any positive perceptions as well. Are you prepared to do that?

No one’s eliminating anything. You are not being censored. I’m simply asking that the same standard be applied to discussions of the BSA program now that it is accepting girls as was applied when it was rejecting them. Comments of the sort you are making were spun off into I&P threads in years past when they were on the other side of the fence.

As to my misunderstanding of your comments - sir, two of the sentences in your original post referred to the video. The others were about how the BSA has changed. That speaks for itself.

Please let those of us who want to discuss the program as it is have these program subforums. If you want to change it or bemoan the changes, then go to I&P. That is the place for it.

Thanks! I’ll wait for the mods to make a ruling one way or the other.

Edited November 3, 2018 by shortridge

[Eagledad]

14 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Yes, Barry. It’s the same love-it-or-leave-it line that people on the anti-gay, anti-girl side spouted at me and mine for so many years when we were advocating for inclusion.

Oh! I see. You were being condescending and smug.

Well, I complement your humility.

Barry