Is BSA adult leader training necessary?

[Buggie]

Useless or not, unless you're registered as one of the "student" roles (92U or 91U) it needs to be done so it doesn't count against the unit's training record. It's pretty important for units trying for the JTE and other such things. 

The standard BSA online training held some items I didn't know and a lot I did. IOLS was similar. The best thing the latter did was meeting folks in my area. 

But the biggest thing about the training and reading up on the Guide to Advancement etc, is that you'll spot all those pesky things that a unit does that aren't correct. I was slightly amused/horrified when our SM helped administer the training at a summer camp and came out of it with a lot of corrected views. (The standard one I correct all the time is the BoR being a "retest" of the scout.) As such, you can at least ask the innocent question, "Where can I find that in the ...." 

One of my entertainments with a fellow scouter is asking him that question. He's loaded with stuff he thinks is true. I try not to do it too frequently unless it is egregious.  

[MikeS72]

16 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

I do agree IOLS training would probably be useless, but the SM training would probably help you see things as an adult. 

Regardless of age, no one should do Wood Badge because someone else thinks they should.  I took the course at 18, although it was a much different animal (pun intended) 46 years ago.

As for SM specific and IOLS, if you want to be officially position trained, those are required.  If JTE is important to your troop, having leaders position trained is important as well.  As @Sentinel947 said, you may find yourself helping others who do not have your experience during IOLS.  I came back into the program after a hiatus when my nephew was in Cubs, and moved into the troop with him.  IOLS was not around during my last stint, and as an ASM I took the course last spring.  While there was nothing presented that I was not already very familiar with, there were a lot of new leaders in the course, so I spent a fair amount of time helping them with knots, lashings, map & compass, etc. 

[Buggie]

Oh yah, forgot the OP was about wood badge.  I'll echo what other's have been saying. Don't bother with it until you feel like you want to take it. It does help with some of the folks who feel like non-beaded folk aren't worth listening too, but the true test is how you work with the scouts and scouters. Those who aren't full of the beads can tell those who have a good head on their shoulders and who are trying to improve. 

[perdidochas]

17 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

Regardless of age, no one should do Wood Badge because someone else thinks they should.  I took the course at 18, although it was a much different animal (pun intended) 46 years ago.

As for SM specific and IOLS, if you want to be officially position trained, those are required.  If JTE is important to your troop, having leaders position trained is important as well.  As @Sentinel947 said, you may find yourself helping others who do not have your experience during IOLS.  I came back into the program after a hiatus when my nephew was in Cubs, and moved into the troop with him.  IOLS was not around during my last stint, and as an ASM I took the course last spring.  While there was nothing presented that I was not already very familiar with, there were a lot of new leaders in the course, so I spent a fair amount of time helping them with knots, lashings, map & compass, etc. 

I really have no input into the Woodbadge part of the concern. I know great, mediocre, and bad Scout leaders who have gone through Woodbadge.

[Pale Horse]

I hate when anybody feels they don't need training and "already know everything."  More training never hurt anyone.

I see it all over the place.."I was an Eagle, so know how the program runs", "I was in the military, so know how to camp"...

Leader training is meant to level-set and get people on the same page.  You may know "you" did things or how "your Troop" did things, but maybe that's not really the best or ideal way.  Even if it is, consider this an opportunity to share that knowledge and meet other leaders who may not have as much knowledge in a particular subject.

Learning is a life-long obligation. 

[Eagledad]

Sometimes making the effort shows a buy-in and commitment. It speaks loudly for a 20 year old jumping into a working team of 35 to 60 year olds. Especially if that adult plans a long career as a scouter.

Barry

[FireStone]

23 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

I see it all over the place.."I was an Eagle, so know how the program runs"...

I've actually made the opposite argument in my Pack. I'm an Eagle and it has not prepared me at all for herding Cub Scouts. 😁

 

[SSScout]

Yeah, I know you know it all, but do I?   Maybe YOU can teach ME something.   Then again, maybe the Scout Way is what needs to be discussed.

I had a good friend growing up.  His folks emigrated from Germany just after the war, and had a hard time with ANYTHING with a uniform. He  refused to join Scouts , but became an excellent outdoorsman in his own right.  I would have trusted him with my life. 

He earned a double BS from Washington University, moved to Juneau Alaska, opened an outdoor store,  led expeditions into the Tongass range.   He died saving the lives of a group that met with unexpectedly  horrendous bad weather on Mt. Denali. 

Do we need training?  It helps to be humble enough to realize one can gain from ANY new, different experience. 

[CodyMiller351]

On 11/2/2018 at 9:55 AM, Pale Horse said:

I hate when anybody feels they don't need training and "already know everything."  More training never hurt anyone.

I see it all over the place.."I was an Eagle, so know how the program runs", "I was in the military, so know how to camp"...

Leader training is meant to level-set and get people on the same page.  You may know "you" did things or how "your Troop" did things, but maybe that's not really the best or ideal way.  Even if it is, consider this an opportunity to share that knowledge and meet other leaders who may not have as much knowledge in a particular subject.

Learning is a life-long obligation. 

I would not say I "already know everything".  I would say that the adult leader training I have already done was completely pointless for me.  I agree "more training never hurt anyone", but training on the same thing over and over which I already know and understand is useless when there are other things to train on. For the "I was an Eagle, so I know how the program runs", shouldn't that be the case.  Shouldn't you learn how to become a adult leader when you are obtaining your Eagle Scout.  Isn't that the point, to develop a boy into a young man and a great leader.  I'm not saying you learn everything you need to (youth protection) but these leadership classes the BSA offer are things I already have learned and utilized throughout my Scouting career.  Like I said in my last sentence of my original post, I said I am perfectly fine with learning more and expanding my knowledge but I am not fine with wasting my time and money going to training sessions that are of little to no use to me.  

[SSScout]

There is a difference between the trail leader who almost trips over a rock,  turns to the fellows behind him and says "watch out for that rock" and the trail follower who steps over the rock and says nothing to the fellow behind him....  

[HashTagScouts]

16 minutes ago, CodyMiller351 said:

I would not say I "already know everything".  I would say that the adult leader training I have already done was completely pointless for me.  I agree "more training never hurt anyone", but training on the same thing over and over which I already know and understand is useless when there are other things to train on. For the "I was an Eagle, so I know how the program runs", shouldn't that be the case.  Shouldn't you learn how to become a adult leader when you are obtaining your Eagle Scout.  Isn't that the point, to develop a boy into a young man and a great leader.  I'm not saying you learn everything you need to (youth protection) but these leadership classes the BSA offer are things I already have learned and utilized throughout my Scouting career.  Like I said in my last sentence of my original post, I said I am perfectly fine with learning more and expanding my knowledge but I am not fine with wasting my time and money going to training sessions that are of little to no use to me.  

Not every Eagle will have served as SPL- heck, not even every Eagle will have served as a PL, or anything more than Troop Librarian- so no, Eagle has not necessarily prepared you for taking over as SM at age 18.  Could you obtain knowledge necessary for being an SM/ASM on your own, without the position-specific training? Yes, you could, but not everyone knows where to begin, and as others have pointed out, your participation can be as much about sharing your perspective than your individual learning outcomes.   

[CodyMiller351]

1 minute ago, HashTagScouts said:

Not every Eagle will have served as SPL- heck, not even every Eagle will have served as a PL, or anything more than Troop Librarian- so no, Eagle has not necessarily prepared you for taking over as SM at age 18.  Could you obtain knowledge necessary for being an SM/ASM on your own, without the position-specific training? Yes, you could, but not everyone knows where to begin, and as others have pointed out, your participation can be as much about sharing your perspective than your individual learning outcomes.   

I never said every new Eagle Scout should be prepared to take over as Scoutmaster at age 18, as there is much to learn over time, that is why you have to be at least 21 to be Scoutmaster.  I do think every Eagle Scout should be prepared to become a good adult leader based on experience in leadership and knowledge of how Scouting works.  You do not have to be SPL or even PL to learn and become a good leader.  

[qwazse]

10 minutes ago, CodyMiller351 said:

... For the "I was an Eagle, so I know how the program runs", shouldn't that be the case?  Shouldn't you learn how to become a adult leader when you are obtaining your Eagle Scout.  Isn't that the point, to develop a boy into a young man and a great leader? ...

Well, this is one problem about when rank advancement was denied to anyone over age 18 in the late sixties. Those ovals were seen as strictly kids awards. And, as the thinking evolved, what one learns as a kid isn't necessarily what one needs as an adult.

Personally, I wish every ASM would have to earn 1st class rank, at least. Then, any specific adult training would indeed be material that probably wasn't taught to them as a scout. Heck, I would get rid of the age 18 deadline for eagle. What do I care if my SM tries to earn Eagle? An exercise in humility for sure, but the mere fact that he would be trying to do so would show our scouts how important the award is.

That's not the world we have. Folks don't want to ditch the traditions we've built in the past 50 years. And along with those traditions is the assumption that new adult leaders can only learn through special classes just for adults, and somehow those classes will help adults get up to speed faster and retain more than the simple-minded pedagogy of an earlier time.

The best you can do is not fall for it. Be judicious about your training. Choose things that will round out your current skill-set. Prioritize those and let your co-leaders know what those priorities are. If there's something required that you think you know well, ask your district training coordinator if you can help teach the course and in the process get credit for taking it.

That should keep you busy for a couple or three years. By then, Woodbadge might sound appealing.

[LeCastor]

11 minutes ago, qwazse said:

And along with those traditions is the assumption that new adult leaders can only learn through special classes just for adults, and somehow those classes will help adults get up to speed faster and retain more than the simple-minded pedagogy of an earlier time.

I particularly like the Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills course and eagerly volunteer to serve as an instructor each time it's offered in our council. Two years ago I volunteered to run the course and assemble a staff of talented instructors. At least in my view, that course was very successful because when each Scouter left they left energized, re-engaged, and ready to do some Scouting back home. 

Also, now, in my various Scouting roles, I try my best to encourage Scouts to participate as instructors for whatever I'm organizing from the training standpoint. Youth teaching adults is a powerful thing! If all we have all the time is adults talking to adults about bowlines...we aren't going to do much for @CodyMiller351. But if we encourage Cody to become an instructor and invite the Scouts from his Troop to teach the new adults who don't necessarily know Outdoor Leader Skills we might just get somewhere.

Wood Badge is the same way. As Scoutmaster this year, I encouraged youth to come in and teach several of the sessions. The learners appreciated that! I guess it's all in the approach to the training--teaching and taking.

[Eagledad]

7 minutes ago, LeCastor said:

 

Wood Badge is the same way. As Scoutmaster this year, I encouraged youth to come in and teach several of the sessions. The learners appreciated that! I guess it's all in the approach to the training--teaching and taking.

Yes, it is all in the approach. I wish there was a course for teaching approaches.

Barry