A Scout is Reverent?

[SR540Beaver]

The problem is not just one of scouts not knowing much about duty to God. I'd venture to say that there are a proportional number of scouters doing BOR's that are in the same boat.

[Bob White]

Not a bad start scoutldr, now the next step. What quantitative requirements or measurements could you put into it to:

A) determine that the counselor was qualified and capable

B) outline standard requirements to do that the merit badge was not dependent on the counselor to determine what requirements needed to be met and what the measurement of "met" would be.

 

By doing this it would meet the same criteria as all other merit badges.

 

[boleta]

On Eagle Boards, when the candidate is asked, "which point of the Scout Law would you eliminate if you could only have 11?", the scouts most frequent response that I hear is Reverent. The most common answer as to why is that it is already covered in the Oath- do duty to God.

Requiring a Religious Life merit badge for Eagle is about the most redundant thing I have seen you guys suggest so far. It is already covered in the Oath and Law. It is available in the Religious Award. The determination of satisfactory duty to God is very subjective and should be a personal issue between the Scout and his Creator.

[Fuzzy Bear]

A few years ago, the BSA changed the program by eliminating the First Class requirement of Morse Code. It was obvious that too many Scouts were not Mentally Fit and would never make it. The only way to make the Eagle Award accessible to the general public would be to make it so easy that anyone could do it. Later, the BSA changed the requirements for First Class to be so easy that a Scout could do that part in record time. People are still not satisfied with the ease that the Eagle can be obtained, so other meaner ways have been devised to allow youth their resume builder.

 

The other side of the argument is that by bringing more young people into contact with a program for a longer period of time is the best way to assist in positive change for the greatest number. This was a utilitarian goal planned to shape the youth of America into being Morally Straight. It was a way to modernize and to bring into focus what young people want and are doing. It was a way to make it palatable to the masses.

 

Where are we in the process? I feel that for every one cheap shot Eagle there are four really meaningful, knowledgeable young people that will not only benefit from the program but later return to assist others. The other twenty percent will most likely not benefit from anything but there is always hope and I have seen people change just through association. The BSA is an organization that is not perfect but has the kind of resilience that people benefit from even with the acknowledged problems.

 

FB

 

[Bob White]

Fuzzy, Just how easy is Eagle to reach if more than 95% of the Scouts never achieve it? If it was easy shouldn't that number be closerto 50%?

[scoutldr]

I'll take that as a compliment, Bob. I didn't suggest it would be easy. Perhaps an ecumenical committee of religious leaders could put their heads together and come up with a proposal that would allow consensus (meaning they don't necessarily agree with everything, but they can live with it and support it). The requirements don't need to be objective and quantifiable..there are lots of MB requirements that say merely, "discuss with your counselor" or "write a report", or "find a community (religious) leader and interview them".

 

As I said, halfway through the Eagle Board is not the time for the scout to start thinking about this.

 

How would we make sure MBCs are qualified? Same way we do now.

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

"The requirements don't need to be objective and quantifiable..there are lots of MB requirements that say merely, "discuss with your counselor" or "write a report", or "find a community (religious) leader and interview them".

 

I never said objective, although most merit badge requirements are, but of course they would have to be specific and quantitative. Sure you can say discus with your counselor. But discuss what? At some point you have to have a requirement for what will be discussed that fits every scout trying to obtain the merit badge.

 

What specifc reqirements could cover every possible religion and belief?

 

It has to be measurable or how would either the scout or the counselor know when the requirement is satisfied.

 

I sincerely think it was a good start i just not sure it can be accomplished. It is too broad a topic to be standardized. That is why the bsa uses such a liberal definition and does not place any religion above another, but places all reverence over none at all.

 

Perhaps there is a simpler way?

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bob,

 

I am not privy to the numbers of Eagles nor am I trying to make a factual statement about the quality of the present day Eagles. I am aware of the requirements both today and 40 years ago. I have witnessed the changes in requirements and personally believed that the program was disintegrating. To my amazement, the program did not burn out but continued in spite of my incorrect opinions. Although the emphasis is different, the BSA is a great program both today and yesterday. I am thankful for those that continue to make it so.

 

FB

 

[Bob White]

Just for the record Fuzzy, the current stat is just over 4.5% of scouts achieve Eagle, 30 years ago the stat was just under 3%. So basically the number of Eagles in 30 years has increased about 1.5%.

 

The Eagle is easy to get? It doesn't show in the facts. The Eagle is easier to get? I am not sure that the facts support that opinion either with such a small increase in three decades.

 

These are not secret numbers. The BSA publishes them often in reports and news releases.

 

Hope this helps to dispel your concerns.

BW

[eagle54]

Our district's Eagle Board's are done at the district level.

 

Sometimes I find that a dictionary is helpful in asking about a work like reverent. Reverent can be defined as standing in awe of a Deity.

 

A lot of the troop's who attend the sponsoring church and most of the adult leadership attends also.

 

A questionnaire would be helpful for Eagle Board [especially where you do not know personally the candidate] would fill out a questionnaire -where he has gone to summer camp, fun raising projects he had participate in. Would he be interested in the "Religious Emblem" programs. Has he participated in a High Adventure program. Does the firmament declare a God.

 

It is tough to do a Board of Review on Scouts that you do not know personally.

 

My suggestion would be to have mock Boards of Review at Round Tables where everyone would have a opportunity to develop a feel for what the Board does and does not do.

 

I like to ask questions like which of your merit badge do you like best.

 

[scoutldr]

Ahhhh...statistics.

 

One thing remember from Econ 101 is that the general public thinks 4.5% unemployment is unacceptable. In reality, 4.5% is considered "full employment" and is used as the baseline (or was in 1974). That's because there are always that many people out there who are just not interested in working, or are taking time off to make babies, etc.

 

So the question should be, "Of the scouts who are genuinely interested in earning Eagle, what percentage are successful." There are many ways to interpret the statistic...is it that Eagle is such a challenging thing, or is it that by the time you filter out those who are not interested in advancement, those who join and drop out, or those who are there only because their parents make them, only 4.5% are left?

 

It's like saying "Only X% of females over the age of 16 have drivers' licenses." But of the ones who actually go to DMV and apply, probably 99% are successful. That's the true measure of difficulty.

 

I have asked the question before...4.5% make Eagle...but what's the standard denominator? 4.5% of Bobcats? Tenderfeet? Life Scouts? All those who register at least once?

 

My opinion....if a Life Scout earns 21 MB, wears a POR badge for 6 months, and completes an approved Service Project, he will make Eagle 99% of the time. Nothing else matters at that point, unless he "avows" being gay or atheist during the BOR, and even that may not a deal-breaker depending on who's sitting on the Board.

 

I would like to thank everyone for a good discussion. It's thought provoking, helpful, and civil. See...we can do it if we try!