A Scout is Reverent?

[Fuzzy Bear]

I was thinking out loud on this subject and here are some questions I came up with concerning God and duty.

 

Give some examples of duties to God.

 

What does it mean to keep yourself morally straight?

 

What actions can God expect of you when only He is looking?

 

Tell a story using the subject of a Scout being reverent.

 

If an Eagle Scout is expected to do his duty to God, then what can be expected from you?

 

Let the Scout be the judge of his answers. Should he pass himself or should he return after a period of reflection or should he set some goals for himself to achieve?

 

The question of God is complex but an Eagle Scout should demonstrate growth in this area. He, of all persons, should realize the importance of being honest about this issue and being able to have an understanding that is worth passing on to his brother Scouts. I sincerely hope that our Eagles take their actions and thoughts about this question as seriously as any person that would sit on a BOR.

 

FB

[scoutldr]

I can explain and give examples of say, for instance, Communism, without believing in it or living it in my daily life. I believe the requirement is to "live" the Scout Oath and Law, not just memorize it and be able to explain it and give examples of it.

 

I agree with a previous poster...the Troop Committee and SM did the lad a disservice and put the BOR in a bad position by sending forward a Scout candidate for the rank of Eagle who obviously had no religious training nor convictions and could produce no references in that regard. Once the BOR begins is not the time for the Eagle Candidate to start wondering and deciding if he believes in God or not, only when coached by the Board members.

 

We're not doing our jobs, folks. That was the point of my original post.

[Fat Old Guy]

"We're not doing our jobs, folks. That was the point of my original post."

 

I think that problem is rampant throughout Scouting. Maybe throughout society. Scouts get passed for promotion even thought they don't do their job in the troop or they don't live by the Scout law. The often cited reason is, "they'll quit if you don't advance them."

 

Outside of Scouting kids who can't read get passed through to high school because "it will hurt his self esteem to be held back."

 

Instead of letting kids build their own school projects, the parents take over and do it for them because they want "to make it special."

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I understand what you are expressing about adults not doing their job but it seems overstated as an indictment of Scouters in general. I am sure that we could find examples of neglect such as this in any council in America. Yet, I want to believe that these are in the minority. Either way, we do not have supporting evidence, so your point is accepted as cautionary.

 

I disagree that people can easily give examples of something that they have not experienced and get away with it. This type of person tends to express views that have little depth or personal attachment. They tend toward book answers and are unable to give insight based upon people, place, or time. This often happens on resumes or in interviews with candidates for a job. A person begins by fictionalizing a degree, a project, or a past job and then moves into glossing over the details. Even if they come off with their charade, they have left a paper trail with names and phone numbers that can easily be checked. Hopefully the employer will know how to look beyond mere words. With such an effort, the person can easily be exposed and set aside.

 

Some still accomplish their duplicity and do it with remarkable stealth but a young person without the background or sophistication to achieve such a lofty goal generally is unable to pull it off in front of a group of thoughtful adults. You still have the paper trail that can be followed up on either before or after the event. So I submit that good questioning, active listening, and a critical eye for detail will assist a BOR member(s) in achieving their goal effectively.

 

FB

 

[eagle54]

A Scout is Reverent

 

He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties, and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion.

 

A scout is trustworthy. A Scout's honor is to be trusted. If he was to violate his honor by telling a lie, or by cheating, or by not doing exactly a given task, he may be directed to hand over his Scout Badge.

 

To me we have been entrusted to teach the scout law and we need to do a better job of it.

 

I returned yesterday from Summer Camp - where some scouts were answering the roll for others who were not present. The God promises blessing for those who keep his commandments. Man is called not to lie but his word is to be his bond.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

So...were they directed to hand over their Scout badges and sent home?

 

That's my point. Don't waste my time with lip-service. Everyone sees it for what it is...especially the boys.

 

[eagle54]

To me it is clear if a scout in my troop lies at summer camp it would be up to me to discipline him.

 

Are we called to bring a lie, using the Lord name in vain, of an scout not in my troop to the attention of his leaders.

 

What was it about the a Scout or a Scouter who was made a point of believing in a supreme being.

 

There are too many reverences to God, Oath, Law etc for a Scout not to know that duty to God is a part of being a Scout.

 

 

[Rooster7]

So I submit that good questioning, active listening, and a critical eye for detail will assist a BOR member(s) in achieving their goal effectively.

 

While the above may be true, I tend to agree with scoutldr. If we (the collective leaders) did our jobs properly, there'd probably be a significant drop in Eagles. Too often, answers such as, I guess it means going to church and stuff" is deemed acceptable. No one wants to hold anyone accountable these days, especially kids...It's easier to "go with the flow" and accept sub par standards. Otherwise, you risk confrontation, or worse like indignation from adults who think "a happy kid" is the only qualification needed for Eagle.

 

As I once tried to explain to a Scoutmaster who was pushing through some older boys - Subverting the process is not only unfair to those who have legitimately earned the rank, it demeans the achievement. In this particular case, the Scoutmaster had two sons who had truly earned the Eagle award. His sons gave up other activities, made sacrifices, and spent the necessary time to learn the material, and do the tasks required for Eagle. The other boys, whom the Scoutmaster was fond of, eventually received the rank of Eagle too but they did not put forth the same effort. Eagle, to these boys, was something they wanted for their resumes, but overall it was not worth the effort unless someone was going to make it easy. They found the right person in their friend the Scoutmaster. In fact, Im convinced that they did not meet the minimum requirements. So, the Scoutmaster, not only did these boys a disservice, he demeaned his own sons accomplishments by cheapening the effort and lowering the character required to meet the rank. To this day, I am baffled why a man would do that to his own sons. Ive come to the conclusion that 1) he was simply oblivious to his own sons circumstances, and 2) his concern to be viewed as the grand old Scoutmaster by all others, over-shadowed everything else.

 

As to how the Scoutmaster made it easy for them, thats another story. He eventually took over as the CC and his influence was felt in all areas. This, of course, was not possible unless the other adults involved let it happen. Sadly, we did, because it would have been too much effort and drama to change it. So we did what most folks typically do, endure it and/or wait for a regime change. At least, from my lifes experiences, Ive seen this outcome more often than not when it comes to volunteer organizations where one or two people are swinging a political stick. But I digress thats another nightmare that some troops have to deal with, and another thread - somewhere Im sure.

 

[Bob White]

"If we (the collective leaders) did our jobs properly, there'd probably be a significant drop in Eagles."

 

I would not bet on that.

 

If every leader did their jobs properly wouldn't it be a better program in your community?

 

If it were a better program wouldn't it be likely that more youth would join?

 

If more youth joined wouldn't more of them stay in the program longer if it were a better program?

 

If more youth stayed in the program longer wouldn't there be a higher probability of them gaining more advancement opportunities and so more advancement.

 

If more scouts gained more advancement wouldn't the chance of more youth attaining Eagle increase?

 

If the number of youth who joined, and the number that attained Eagle, grew at the same rate, wouldn't there be the same percentage of scouts earning Eagle as there are today?

 

If you think that by doing your job better, less scouts would climb to Eagle, then you do not understand your job.

 

It is not the adult leaders job to make or break Eagle Scouts. Their job is to deliver the Scouting program. The better we do that the greater effect we will have on a larger number of youth. How could that not have a positive effect on the number of boys choosing to work toward their eagle Scout Award?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Rooster7]

If you think that by doing your job better, less scouts would climb to Eagle, then you do not understand your job.

 

The jist of what I was trying to communicate was -

 

If the BSA standards/requirements for rank advancement were upheld faithfully, it would be more difficult to become an Eagle then some boys have discovered it to be.

 

But to give you your due - Yes, if the program was run better (i.e., there were better leaders), I suppose more boys would join, more would stay, and more would advance. But that wasn't the issue that I was attempting to highlight. Nor do I suspect it was scoutldr's intent.

[Bob White]

"But that wasn't the issue that I was attempting to highlight. Nor do I suspect it was scoutldr's intent."

 

I agree. It would appear that what you wanted to highlight was that "if the every leader did their job better", and if a leaders job was to 'uphold the standards and requirements of the program' that there would be fewer Eagles.

 

My point is that upholding the standards and requirements is an extremely minor element of scouting and belongs to the chartering organization and to the committee members not the Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmasters who job it is to deliver a quality program.

 

And that if the scouts got a quality program, that the quality of advancement would for the most part take care of itself.

 

 

[Rooster7]

My point is that upholding the standards and requirements is an extremely minor element of scouting and belongs to the chartering organization and to the committee members not the Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmasters who job it is to deliver a quality program.

 

I disagree on two counts

 

1) The standards/requirements are not minor.

 

2) In many cases, the SM or an ASM or a merit badge counselor, is signing off the requirement (not the committee members), and thus they are in prime position to ensure the standards/requirements are being met properly.

 

Furthermore, while the committee members support the troop in the background, Ive always considered them leaders by virtue of the fact that they are adults in uniform. Regardless, even we narrow this discussion down to the troop committee and no one else - I feel the issue still exists. In many cases, standards/requirements are being glossed over because the adults involved are fearful of hurt feelings and/or confrontation. Ive seen this and Im sure so have many others. While I understand it, I think its something troops need to address so that sub par standards/requirements do not become the norm (and demean the rank for those who worked hard to meet the standards/requirements).

 

And that if the scouts got a quality program, that the quality of advancement would for the most part take care of itself.

 

It is possible to deliver a quality program in every other respect. That is to say, it is not an all or nothing situation. Ive seen parts of the program done very well, and others somewhat neglected.

 

[Bob White]

Roster,

You wrote, "Ive seen parts of the program done very well, and others somewhat neglected."

 

I agree, but I based my responses to your posts on the premise which you established "If we did our jobs right..."

 

So now my question is, if we did our jobs right why would any parts of the program be neglected?

 

 

[Rooster7]

So now my question is, if we did our jobs right why would any parts of the program be neglected?

 

That was my pretence, specifically in regard to advancement If we did our jobs properly, boys who do not meet the standards/requirements would not be advanced. I was not attempting to relate this fact to any other part of the program. I am just making an observation.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[scoutldr]

Here's an idea...since too many BOR and Scoutmasters do not seem to grasp the idea of "duty to God" and the ones that do are reticent to enforce it...a new "Eagle Required" merit badge called "Religious Life" or "Duty to God". Requirement 1 would be "Earn the religious award for your Faith" OR do the following:

The optional requirements would be for those who choose not to participate in organized religion, which we all agree is not a BSA requirement. But they would have to seek out a qualified counselor to demonstrate that they understand "duty to God" and are practicing it in whatever form the BSA deems adequate. Then side-stepping the issue and rubberstamping Eagle apps would not be an option.