DE interference - not helping

[Momleader]

I’m so frustrated I could spit!  I’m Pack Committee Chair (have been with the pack for  12 years and done all but cubmaster Job) 

I took up new leader applications to the council complete with YTP certificates. Then I get a call that one dad cannot be a den leader of the dens his sons are in. Because - there needs to be a different den leader for each den on the recharter!  I’m like “wth?  He has a lion son and a tiger son wants to be involved with each equally and is willing to run meetings for each den.”  DE tells me it’s about the overall number of adults to kids ratio!  

Has anyone ever heard of something like this?  This guy is more than a warm body - he’s an ultra-involved parent!  

When asked why someone can be cubmaster and den leader without issue there was no answer.  

Why would they be trying to make this harder on people? Or is it that they only get 1 adult registration fee per person rather than fees per job?

Edited October 23, 2018 by Momleader
Spelling

[The Latin Scot]

This actually isn't particularly unusual, nor is it a new or obscure regulation. You DE was simply following the correct procedures according to BSA policy. A volunteer can't serve in more than one position within a unit; admittedly smaller units sometimes bend this rule but it's not supposed to happen. So you shouldn't have anybody serving as both Cubmaster and Den Leader either. Here's the link to an article from the Scouting Magazine blog that should hopefully help you understand the rationale behind this principle: 

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2016/04/29/can-volunteer-serve-multiple-volunteer-roles/

Edited October 23, 2018 by The Latin Scot

[MikeS72]

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2016/04/29/can-volunteer-serve-multiple-volunteer-roles/

 

Looks like I was a little slow in posting this link, but it doesn't hurt to be repeated.  We both do not want to over burden anyone, and also want to see as many parents step up as needed.

Edited October 23, 2018 by MikeS72

[packsaddle]

Interesting question and I don't know the answer. But I can soothe you a bit by informing you that this is far from the worst problems that a DE can present.  OK, I know that rule but we often did things like this and the DE signed off on it. Council too. 

Edited October 23, 2018 by packsaddle

[WonderBoy]

Let's see... is it better to have a Cubmaster also serve as a Den Leader or have boys not register at all because of the lack of separate leadership?

After failing to get a Lion Den off the ground for the last two years due to lack of leadership (and a "tipping point" of Scouts), I made sure people knew I was going to be the Lion leader and there would be a den this year. (I had selfish reasons; I wanted to make sure my son had a Den to join.) There are two other boys currently in his den. One boy's dad is already a Den Leader for his older brother and his mom is our "Popcorn Kernel". Since I'm the Cubmaster, that leaves the other boy's parents. I was pretty blant and just told this boy's father that he was my Assistant Den Leader, as there was no other option. (And to his credit this new Scouter also stepped up to be our Pack's Advancement Chair.) And maybe New Scouter and I can switch places once things are up and running, but we couldn't risk another year of the Lion Den not happening.

And we're not even a particularly small Pack. 35-45 kids, depending. BSA can HOPE leadership is spread out enough that no one has to double up, but reality is another thing entirely...

Edited October 23, 2018 by WonderBoy

[fred johnson]

Get the leaders on the chartered with their primary role.  Ideally, it's their only role.  But, it happens that people hold multiple hats.  Beyond that, the council does not reach into your scouting unit.  If he fulfills multiple roles, that's between him and the other leaders in the pack. 

[MattR]

@Momleader, I suspect you can safely ignore this. Here's another DE story just to amuse you. I'm the district camping chair. We made reservations for our winter campout and have, since the 70's, always looked for the coldest, snowiest place we could find. Yesterday our DE said our reservation was cancelled and we had to do it at the council camp, where it has never been. I made a few phone calls today. Turns out the council is broke, has not paid last year's bill, and is just trying to stiff these people, the neighboring council. We're going to ignore the DE and have all troops write checks to a 3rd party that we can trust to make the payments. There are several companies that won't do business with our council anymore.  If anyone in the council complains we'll open up the books, so to speak. 

As I said, just ignore them. You're providing a great program for your pack. Keep up the good work. 

[FireStone]

I kind of always assumed that most Packs had their "official" roster of leadership positions and then there was the "unofficial" one that was closer to reality. CM is also a DL, DL works with more than one Den, etc.

In my Pack (and I suspect a lot of Packs) there would just not be any way to sustain the program without some multi-position overlap. Does that go against what the BSA says we are supposed to do? Sure. But the alternative is that we have Dens without DLs or we don't have a CM.

[Jameson76]

Remember what the DE mantra is...

More applications equals more green.....

 

[Eagle1993]

38 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I kind of always assumed that most Packs had their "official" roster of leadership positions and then there was the "unofficial" one that was closer to reality. CM is also a DL, DL works with more than one Den, etc.

In my Pack (and I suspect a lot of Packs) there would just not be any way to sustain the program without some multi-position overlap. Does that go against what the BSA says we are supposed to do? Sure. But the alternative is that we have Dens without DLs or we don't have a CM.

Agreed.  When I hit the online recharter process it becomes a bit of a game of how to adjust my actual leadership structure into the BSA requirements.  For example, I have a great den leader who is also Cubmaster.  If I followed BSA I would either have a weaker Cubmaster or a weaker den leader.  Yes, ideally I have competent parents tripping over themselves volunteering.   I don’t, so we run the pack with the leadership we have (always looking for more), following YPT and adjusting our charter renewal to match requirements.

[Momleader]

On 10/26/2018 at 5:33 PM, MattR said:

@Momleader, I suspect you can safely ignore this. Here's another DE story just to amuse you. I'm the district camping chair. We made reservations for our winter campout and have, since the 70's, always looked for the coldest, snowiest place we could find. Yesterday our DE said our reservation was cancelled and we had to do it at the council camp, where it has never been. I made a few phone calls today. Turns out the council is broke, has not paid last year's bill, and is just trying to stiff these people, the neighboring council. We're going to ignore the DE and have all troops write checks to a 3rd party that we can trust to make the payments. There are several companies that won't do business with our council anymore.  If anyone in the council complains we'll open up the books, so to speak. 

As I said, just ignore them. You're providing a great program for your pack. Keep up the good work. 

I would be sooo steamed if our DE tried that. They used to tell us we had to camp at council camp which is 63 minutes away from our charter org/meeting location. Oh and to cabin camp it was $100 for the weekend. Our pack can’t afford that nor do the parents want to drive 63 minutes (more in Friday night traffic). So, we camp in the state forest youth camping sites $40/2 nights.  And we try to do camp-in at museums or aquariums - we’ve gone out of council. Our council has to add their administrative upcharge and it’s making some events too expensive.