PLC hazing and bullying problem

[Ranman328]

7 hours ago, SSF said:

That's a pretty damning statement to make against boys. 

So, because of this incident, involving this particular SPL, you feel with great certainty that boys will no doubt do something similar to girls?

No it is not a damning statement to make against boys.  Maybe you have not read about all the issues that transpired at the Scout Jamboree over the summer.  Dozens of reports of Scouts inappropriate behavior toward females at the event.  The fact that they will be handing out condoms at the World Jamboree is very disturbing to me as well.  You go ahead and look at this from your point of view and I hope it never hits close to your back yard.  Thank you for your opinion and I will move on.

[Ranman328]

8 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Where my mind goes is -- how will this boy treat his homecoming date if they are alone, etc?  What if he has a babysitting job or other unsupervised exposure to children?  Unfortunately, behavior like this, especially if undisciplined, can become a pattern.  So the kid needs to be taught the hard lesson now and hopefully it sticks. 

This is kind of where I was going as how are these Scouts going to treat others.  Apparently @SFF doesn't like the fact that I have grouped these boys into a group and has berated me for it but I find it upsetting that an SPL and the PLC would conduct themselves in this manner.  You appear to think along the same lines as me as this can become a behavior and would have probably become worse had they not been caught.

[Ranman328]

7 hours ago, SSF said:

I'm addressing the implication made that 'if one boy does this, all boys are likely to do this.' I'm not defending this particular SPL by any means. What he did was horrendous, but all boys should not be labeled as a threat to girls because this kid can't control himself.

SFF, I would appreciate it if you would not take my comment out of context.  I never said "ALL" boys would do this.  You are going from one end of the spectrum to the other.  The fact is that this was not just one Scout.  Several other Scouts sat by watched and did nothing!  These other scouts are apparently in the PLC.  Please retract your statement.  Thank you!

[SSF]

3 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

No it is not a damning statement to make against boys.  Maybe you have not read about all the issues that transpired at the Scout Jamboree over the summer.  Dozens of reports of Scouts inappropriate behavior toward females at the event.  The fact that they will be handing out condoms at the World Jamboree is very disturbing to me as well.  You go ahead and look at this from your point of view and I hope it never hits close to your back yard.  Thank you for your opinion and I will move on.

You said, "If boys will do this to another boy, they will certainly try it with girls."

The key word you used was "certainly" i.e. you're saying that it's not only possible, but according to you, a matter of certainty, that this will happen to girls because of the incident shared in this post  You re-emphasize and try to support your broad generalization and aspersion against boys by referencing inappropriate behavior from boys at the jamboree.

The implication of your statement was very clear. 

[SSF]

3 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

SFF, I would appreciate it if you would not take my comment out of context.  I never said "ALL" boys would do this.  You are going from one end of the spectrum to the other.  The fact is that this was not just one Scout.  Several other Scouts sat by watched and did nothing!  These other scouts are apparently in the PLC.  Please retract your statement.  Thank you!

Correct, you didn't say "all" boys, but you did imply very clearly that you feel that boys in general, are certainly likely to doing something against girls. That's an unfair generalization to make. 

[RememberSchiff]

Let's remove  the gender, can we agree that those who bully one will likely bully others. 

Thanks,  RS

[SSScout]

A Scout is Brave.  How much effort,  bravery, would it take for a young, inexperienced Scout to speak up, act against an older,  experienced Scout?  I do not so much fault the rest of the PLC at this party . Yes, they need to be encouraged to Speak Truth To Power (the SPL is "power" here.).  They need to absorb, own, the idea of an "ideal". Protect those younger, perhaps weaker (in whatever way) ?  Call to task the older SPL that is acting like an idiot, rather than an ideal?  

Unfortunately, one must ask where did this SPL learn such behavior?  I would posit it was not an inherent , intuitive behavior, acting to make the other Scout feel so . . . embarrassed?  Humiliated?  To what purpose?  How is this a fun thing to do?  At whose expense ?   This is why "Frat Bro Hazing" has been outlawed on so many college campuses, and rightly so.  Ultimately, it not only humiliates the object of the hazing, it must embarrass the person doing it.  Sad.... 

Why even consider the Scout Promise and Law, if not to internalize them,  act upon them,  use them as a guide and standard to judge against?  What is the personal argument against such? One must ask, why did the SPL ignore these standards that he "promises" to follow at each Troop Meeting?  What is his answer to that question?  

Again, the SPL in question LEARNED this behavior, he did not come up with it inherently.  Older brother?  Other sport team mate?  MTV  movie?   How did humiliation come to be "fun" for this (so called) Scout?  

See you on the trail.... 

[WisconsinMomma]

It sounds like teabagging is featured in a video game, where you kill an opponent and then can do this move on someone's corpse. (Ugh.)

That said, it's no excuse.  This SPL needs to be taught that what he did was wrong, it will not happen again, and the Troop will protect its members from that kind of inexcusable behavior. 

[qwazse]

18 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I think we agree that this is a reportable Youth Protection issue.  Right?  Or do you think that this should not be reported to the Council?  

Would you trust this SPL tenting with another one of your scouts?

I never hesitate to run things like this by seasoned scouting pros. They've been more help than harm. And those interactions inform my opinion to this day. This would be especially true if the pro had more information on this scout or other complaints about my troop. But even if nothing specific to the scouts in question, he/she should have experience with a wide array of incidents. That would help me put things in perspective.

As far as trusting such a (now-ex) SPL who, after suspension, decides he wants to be a scout - for real this time: I would not trust him to tent with a scout of lesser rank or age. I would also be very cautious about him bunking with much older scouts who know of the incident because they might in their indignation feel justified in bullying him. The scout has made a real mess for himself.

 

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

A Scout is Brave.  How much effort,  bravery, would it take for a young, inexperienced Scout to speak up, act against an older,  experienced Scout?  I do not so much fault the rest of the PLC at this party . Yes, they need to be encouraged to Speak Truth To Power (the SPL is "power" here.).  They need to absorb, own, the idea of an "ideal". Protect those younger, perhaps weaker (in whatever way) ?  Call to task the older SPL that is acting like an idiot, rather than an ideal?  

 

SSS, speaking up against power requires a great deal of courage. Not only for the 10 year old new scout vs. the 17 year old varsity scout, but for adults as well. In fact, most repeated abuses occur because our human nature doesn't want to risk personal harm for standing up. Most of us hope instead the bad behavior will not happen again. For a culture you describe to exist in the troop, the adults have to allow it and encourage the culture. Just saying "The Scout Law is-the-law", won't work. Actions set the tone of troop culture, not words.

And that you don't fault the rest of the PLC is a problem in encouraging the "speak up" culture. Everyone there are equally at fault. Knowing that we are equally at fault is what motivates making the right choice and standing up for what's right. If I know  the person is front of me is behaving badly, then the only way to make it right is to personally stand out. 

If I see the authority (adults) repeatedly only taking corrective action against the one behaving badly, while letting the watching observers off the hook, I learn that I'm safer by not standing up. If on the other hand the observers are held accountable for not stopping the behavior they know is harmful, then I at least know I'm supported for standing up for my conscience and principles.

I will give you an antidote at the top of my head. We had to take a scout to the emergency room for a broken big toe that was caused by tripping over a tree root while running barefoot through camp. When the scouts were asked exactly what happened, their consistent stories made clear most of them watched the event unfold. When the SM asked them what rules were broken, most of the scouts braggingly listed them. When they were asked why they didn't stop their friend from breaking the rules, they were suddenly quiet. They all knew the rules. In a way, they may have been more at fault than the scout with the broken toe. At the very least, they were held accountable.

Barry

[SSScout]

Eagledad, you are certainly correct. I don't think I ever implied to let the onlookers off the hook. Courage? yes. Reason for the courage?  There is the nub.  Recitation of a poem is not the same as internalizing it, making it your own.  The ability to call out a bully, to point and make it stick is an ability often sorely lacking .

Have you ever had a situation occur at work where a supervisor tried to blame the issue on a "lack of policy" rather than a lack of ability to make a decision?  Taking responsibility for a decision rather than merely quoting "policy"?  It's kind of the same thing here.  Not every decision can be based on established "policy" .  Sometimes one has to fall back on " "what would Mr. Smith do?"  (Mr. Smith being the Scoutmaster here).  Lacking that, to compare the decision /action to the Scout Promise and/or Scout Law is a VERY good place to start.

In the present situation, the other Scouts somehow had not learned to empathize, to see such behavior not as funny but sad.  Not to see the SPL "perp" as funny, but as an unfortunate case.  I hope the bullied Scout has gained some friends after this event and the SPL has rightfully lost esteem in the sight of the rest of the Troop. He must re-earn their esteem by the better behavior he shows in future.

[David CO]

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 3:14 PM, Bside said:

 

At this sleep over, the other boys began to bully him throughout the night. The adults in the house were sleeping in another part of a relatively large house.

 

I can understand how the parents could have been unaware of the bullying while it was taking place, since the incident took place in another part of the house. How did they react when they learned about what had transpired under their roof?

[WebCrawley]

If this wasn't a BSA sanctioned event, as a parent I would call the Police and have him arrested for sexual assault. Plenty of witnesses.

[John-in-KC]

@WebCrawleywelcome to scouter

[WebCrawley]

Thank you.