Wood Badge - Roses and Thorns

[cocomax]

At the last Camp-o-ree campfire I went to we had all the Wood Badge folks take the stage and sing 5 or so Wood Badge songs that none of the scouts know and most of the Wood Badge folks did not remember too well ether, then they gave out an award to a Wood Badge person, who then gave a 5 minute or so speech,  and then gave we all got a 10 minute or so Wood Badge recruitment talk.  All the boys and scouters were as quiet as could be and let them have their time. After all that most the Wood Badge folks then returned to their seats, but 15 or so stayed up front and moved just off stage. . .  and had a little reunion meet up, with loud laughter, jokes, loud talking, for them the campfire was over and it was time for fun and reconnecting with old friends . . .

. . . only problem was it was time for the OA Call Out Ceremony. . .  while the 3 flutes were playing off in the distance we all treated to the loud laughter and shenanigans of the Wood Badge crew up fount, they continued to be loud through out the OA Ceremony, making it very hard to even hear the names being called.  .  .

     It really took the air out of the OA Ceremony,  it was quite sad really.

     The boys notice things like this.         

Edited October 20, 2018 by cocomax

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Not all WBers are horrible. I've worked with many great ones over the years.

Then why do folks keep referring to WB'ers as a group - like they're all the same?  The WB'ers ruined this, the WB'ers ruined that.  Look at the WB'ers - they're messing stuff up again.

It just feels like whatever personal frustration folks have grown into a sort of thing where "real scouters get to make fun of the WB'ers."

[ParkMan]

2 minutes ago, cocomax said:

At the last Camp-o-ree campfire I went to we had all the Wood Badge folks take the stage and sing 5 or so Wood Badge songs that none of the scouts know and most of the Wood Badge folks did not remember too well ether, then they gave out an award to a Wood Badge person, who then gave a 5 minute or so speech,  and then gave we all got a 10 minute or so Wood Badge recruitment talk.  All the boys and scouters were as quiet as could be and let them have their time. After all that most the Wood Badge folks then returned to their seats, but 15 or so stayed up front and moved just off stage. . .  and had a little reunion meet up, with loud laughter, jokes, loud talking, for them the campfire was over and it was time for fun and reconnecting with old friends . . .

. . . only problem was it was time for the OA Call Out Ceremony. . .  while the 3 flutes were playing off in the distance we all treated to the loud laughter and shenanigans of the Wood Badge crew up fount, they continued to be loud through out the OA Ceremony, making it very hard to even hear the names being called.  .  .

     It really took the air out of the OA Ceremony,  it was quite sad really.

     The boys notice things like this.         

Clearly that was inappropriate and wrong.  Scouters make bad choices all the time.

Reminds me of a time we took our Cub Pack to the Council Cuboree.  The OA folks decided that it would be great to have an hour long OA drumming demonstration at the evening Cuboree campfire.  So, 6 guys came out and drummed for an hour in front of 600 participants. Needless to say our pack lasted 15 minutes.  We did enjoy great sport that night back at the campsite "Hey Bob - are they still going?  Yep".  Classic. 

OA Call Out Ceremonies around here are kinda like that too.  Ok, we have a great Camporee campfire and then at the end and spend 15 minutes tapping out new OA members.  It's great fun for the new OA members.  The younger guys or the ones that don't get elected are often bored to tears.

[Pale Horse]

27 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Then why do folks keep referring to WB'ers as a group - like they're all the same?  The WB'ers ruined this, the WB'ers ruined that.  Look at the WB'ers - they're messing stuff up again.

It just feels like whatever personal frustration folks have grown into a sort of thing where "real scouters get to make fun of the WB'ers."

Same reason folks refer to new Scouters (in their estimation anyone less than 20+ years of experience) as a group who's ruining the patrol method.  The same reason they refer to women scouters as a group who want to turn Scouting into Family Camp.

I guess it's a combination of ease of convenience and small-mindedness.

[desertrat77]

11 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I just get the sense that there's a thing in the Scouter community where it's considered an accepted practice to make fun of Wood Badge and those that have taken it.  I understand that many feel that they are justified in doing it.  It really just seems that somewhere along the way it has grown into something bigger than being rightly frustrated with some Scouters who have taken Wood Badge.

Parkman, I understand how it can seem that the ridicule level is higher than deserved.  But I can truthfully say the WB communities I've seen over the decades (several councils) have more than earned the criticism.

It's not that it's an accepted practice so much as a frank assessment of how many WBers collectively act.    Their condescending attitudes aside, when a group within the BSA feels it's their right to hijack any public event--camporee campfires, courts of honor for scouts, roundtables, etc.--to spend up to 45 minutes presenting a set of beads, that's the clincher.  In front of a listless and often incredulous audience, the WBers sally forth with endless stories, critter songs, mutual-admiration, inside jokes and such, completely tone-deaf to how their actions are being perceived.

Whether it's beading ceremonies, or the pushy sales presentations, or anything else discussed here, I consider it valid feedback.  For good or ill.  The WB community would be miles ahead if they tailored actions and attitudes accordingly.  But no.  Since the feedback comes from the Great Unwashed Non-Beaded Folks, it is discounted and ignored.   Darn shame, because if the WB community a) toned down the braggadocio, and b) ditched the power point death march and focused on outdoor adventure (hiking, cooking, camping instead of sitting in a mess hall or at a picnic table), WB courses would have waiting lists of folks wanting to join.  The ball is strictly in WB's court.

Edited October 20, 2018 by desertrat77

[Eagledad]

35 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

Same reason folks refer to new Scouters (in their estimation anyone less than 20+ years of experience) as a group who's ruining the patrol method.  The same reason they refer to women scouters as a group who want to turn Scouting into Family Camp.

I guess it's a combination of ease of convenience and small-mindedness.

There is definitely some irony in this response.

Barry

 

[Sentinel947]

55 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

Whether it's beading ceremonies, or the pushy sales presentations, or anything else discussed here, I consider it valid feedback.  For good or ill.  The WB community would be miles ahead if they tailored actions and attitudes accordingly.  But no.  Since the feedback comes from the Great Unwashed Non-Beaded Folks, it is discounted and ignored.   Darn shame, because if the WB community a) toned down the braggadocio, and b) ditched the power point death march and focused on outdoor adventure (hiking, cooking, camping instead of sitting in a mess hall or at a picnic table), WB courses would have waiting lists of folks wanting to join.  The ball is strictly in WB's court.

Absolutely. My comment here has some bolding for emphasis and clarity. As a lot of Wood Badgers in my area like to say "Feedback is a gift." I've actually really enjoyed this thread, because it gives me things to look for in my own Councils' NYLT and Wood Badge programs. Obviously not all these critiques apply to every Wood Badger or every Wood Badge program, but it's still great feedback. I obviously can't speak for every Council, but I think mine has a decent handle on some of these things with our Wood Badge and NYLT programs. I definitely do see some of these critiques in my council. 

To summarize: 

• Lack of humility
  • Being dismissive of non Woodbadgers/NYLT
  • Treating other Wood Badgers poorly.
  • Co-opting other events to do Wood Badge stuff. Frankly the youth don't care. I know I didn't when I was a Scout. 
     
• Not "Walking the Walk"
  • Hazing of participants. Stealing items, singing for lost items, talking smack about people.
  • Inside jokes in public. -The Critter song, Beading ceremonies are examples of this. 
  • Not using the stuff taught in Wood Badge in their units. Any Wood Badge graduate who is not attempting to use the patrol method in their troop should "retire". 
  • Being one of those who just sits around at council/district events and act like an authority figure. 
     
• Sales tactics
  • Overselling/over pushing Wood Badge/NYLT. -Guilt tripping. 
  • Being secretive about the course vs transparent. It's a training course, not a secret fraternity. 

There are two different types of Scouters that dislike Wood Badge I think. Their reasons are similar, but not the same. Type one are the ones on this forum, are the kind that have been treated poorly by Wood Badge folks, and they have a the right ideas on how to run their troops anyways. Wood Badge is already preaching to the choir for them. So it's less about the material and more about the time the program takes, the fact they won't learn much from it, and that the Wood Badge folks in their area aren't good ambassadors for the program. 

The second type are folks who are out running their own programs, not a Scout troop. They look as Wood Badge as threatening because it'll contradict their own little fiefdoms. These folks are going to be really rare on a forum like this, because they already think they know everything. It's critical not to lump type 1 and type 2 together. 

Like most things in life, the way to fix the divide between type one people and Wood Badge is for us as Wood Badge folks to listen seriously to their concerns, and do our best to adapt our behavior. Ultimately, Type 1 and Wood Badge folks are on the same side. We have the same goals for the program, so to let a training course get in the way of that is really shortsighted. One of the best Assistant Scoutmaster I had as a youth never went to Wood Badge. He was to put off by the behavior of some of the staff. 

The best form of advertising of most things is for it to perform. For Wood Badge, that means that we're helpful to other scouters, we run our troops according to the principles we promote, and that we're humble, friendly and encouraging, vs acting like elitists. 

There's so much more I could probably say on this topic, but I don't want to make this comment even longer and harder to read. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Sentinel947

[desertrat77]

Sentinel947, well said, and I for one would welcome your expanded thoughts on the subject.

To briefly comment on one of your points:  "Treating other Wood Badgers poorly"--when WB for the Twenty First Century was launched, I was surprised when I read that previously beaded scouters would, in some cases, have to go back through WB.  Their previous WB training and years of service to scouting weren't good enough--they had to go through WB again to receive the WB21 material.  Though I'm an outsider, this struck me as a sign of disrespect.  "You are qualified--oh, actually, nope, you gotta go through WB again."  Just my perception, but it seemed disrespectful to those senior scouters.

Edited October 20, 2018 by desertrat77

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, desertrat77 said:

Sentinel947, well said, and I for one would welcome your expanded thoughts on the subject.

To briefly comment on one of your points:  "Treating other Wood Badgers poorly"--when WB for the Twenty First Century was launched, I was surprised when I read that previously beaded scouters would, in some cases, have to go back through WB.  Their previous WB training and years of service to scouting weren't good enough--they had to go through WB again to receive the WB21 material.  Though I'm an outsider, this struck me as a sign of disrespect.  "You are qualified--oh, actually, nope, you gotta go through WB again."  Just my perception, but it seemed disrespectful to those senior scouters.

One thing I'm trying to think about, when did the outrageous promotions and beading ceremonies start? While the attitudes were around pre- WB21C, i don't remember the beading ceremonies, taking over of campfires, etc until after WB21C came out.

[Sentinel947]

1 hour ago, desertrat77 said:

Sentinel947, well said, and I for one would welcome your expanded thoughts on the subject.

To briefly comment on one of your points:  "Treating other Wood Badgers poorly"--when WB for the Twenty First Century was launched, I was surprised when I read that previously beaded scouters would, in some cases, have to go back through WB.  Their previous WB training and years of service to scouting weren't good enough--they had to go through WB again to receive the WB21 material.  Though I'm an outsider, this struck me as a sign of disrespect.  "You are qualified--oh, actually, nope, you gotta go through WB again."  Just my perception, but it seemed disrespectful to those senior scouters.

Thanks! I really enjoyed Wood Badge, but I try to be open minded about where it can be better. I had "type 1" and "type 2" adults in my unit when I was a scout growing up. I jumped into Wood Badge at 22 mostly as a way to encourage our Scoutmaster to go. He needed it. It made him a better Scoutmaster, but it wasn't some enlightening experience for either of us. Good training, fun, I still keep in touch with many staff and participants from my course, but not anything the way some folks rave about Wood Badge. Still, I have a pretty positive impression of it.

I don't even know if I was a Scout when that happened. I do know with the updates they are making to WB21, they won't require folks to retake WB to be "current." 

My expanded thoughts are more based around NYLT than Wood Badge, because I haven't staffed Wood Badge, but I think they apply to both. 

Selling the course

I think folks sell Wood Badge pretty poorly. "It's a mountain top experience." "It's my Eagle", that sorta stuff. It sets folks up to be underwhelmed by Wood Badge. Hopefully it's good training. It should be fun. It should challenge us to improve our units and give us some ideas on how to accomplish that. It's not the pinnacle Scouting experience. Wood Badge is a means to an end, not an end unto on it's own. It's equipping us to help our youth have those great Scouting experiences. My "greatest accomplishments" as a Scouter were working with and coaching my Scouts. Seeing them grow, develop, learn and overcome challenges. That's both true for Scouts in my unit, and some of the youth I staffed with last summer at NYLT. Working with those youth has changed my life, more than participating in Wood Badge ever could have. There's some threads on this website about "Scouting Wins", "Scoutmaster paychecks." Those are the real "Mountaintop experiences" for a Scouter. We've all had those, Wood Badger or not. 

NYLT is a bit more of a pinnacle experience for Scouts because it's something really fresh to them. Most troops do not run the patrol method, as we all know. Scouts haven't likely experienced something like NYLT. I know when I was a Scout it really changed my perception of leadership from that of a boss or a taskmaster to that of somebody who is a servant leader who puts others first and helps them achieve their (and our) goals. If their troop is really adult ran, then it's also a fresh opportunity for them to see what Scouting is really supposed to be like. NYLT changed my perception of what Scouting was about, and kept me fully engaged when I was 16-17 and finishing up my Eagle. It motivated me to keep active and provide service to my troop vs just hunker down and work on my Eagle. 

I've caught my own Scouts doing the NYLT click thing. My troop has a Court of Honor in August. We sent 5 Scouts to NYLT this summer. We have our Scouts come up, be recognized for what summer camps, high adventure, NYLT things they did over the summer. My NYLT scouts talked about how much fun the course was, but they also decided to sing a particularly annoying song they learned at NYLT, that nobody else in my Troop knows. It wasn't quite the Critter song level of pain (because it was brief) but it definitely is a similar situation. Thankfully, my Scouts "walk the walk" from what they learned at NYLT, and it's made a strong difference in my unit. My unit has 4 scouts who have applied to be on staff, and two scouters from my unit going back to staff for 2019. 

I sell Wood Badge to Scouters through NYLT. I encourage them to send their Scouts to NYLT. I think the best place for this is at training events. Our NYLT youth staff are awesome, and help scouters teach many of our courses like UOS classes, IOLS, SM Specific, and even some skills training at Wood Badge. They staff many of our council and district events like camporees. Hopefully seeing these Scouts in action encourages leaders to offer NYLT to their Scouts, who often don't know much about NYLT unless a leader, parent or older Scout tells them. Then the sales pitch for Wood Badge is less about joining the WB cult and more of "If you're not sure how you can support and reinforce what your Scout has learned at NYLT, come to Wood Badge."  I do think there is a place for silly inside jokes like the Critter song and other Wood Badge jokes, but they need to be used in their proper places and times, and should not be used to sell the program. Scouting about the youth, and Wood Badge and NYLT should also be about how we serve youth. They are for no other purpose in my opinion. 

Selling Wood Badge feels similar to me as religious evangelism. If I "walk the walk", if I'm friendly, helpful, courteous and kind, then selling the course to others around me should be pretty easy. No hard sales pitch needed. Without that personal connection, I might as well be selling cutco knives, or cable tv to people. 

How do you fix it?

I honestly think it comes down to the pros shaping the Wood Badge/NYLT culture in their councils. They need to have folks who care about the participants more than themselves, who teach the material as it is in the syllabus (AKA give people what they paid for), but also get experienced and knowledgeable folks who can tie the material and simulations of Wood Badge to the actual thing in a unit. Then there's having the logistics aspects (FOOD) on point, and a trained staff that doesn't kill braincells via powerpoint. There is room in each course syllabus to add little local flavors to things, if those are things that further the goals of the course. I wish there was more skills training at Wood Badge, but that's beyond my scope of control, so I won't hold that against the current course. 

This is all predicated on a WB or NYLT staff having the right intentions. I helped my staff do interviews for our upcoming NYLT course. We had one Scout who interviewed, and much of the time he talked about how being on staff would benefit him, not how he'd help others by being on staff. Very similar to some adults who want to staff WB/NYLT staff so they can get their 3rd bead. The SPL for our course will pick his staff with his ASPLS, but I'll strongly encourage him to avoid folks like that. Yes being on staff will help the staffers, but that's a secondary effect, not a primary reason. The participants are the primary reason.

If our course staffs have the right intentions, much of the rudeness, the lack of "walking the walk", and the special club nature of things should lessen. As I said in my earlier post. Humility, friendliness, helpfulness, knowledge are what we need out of WB or NYLT staff. By and large most of the staff I've worked with are those kind of people, but I also know a few staffers who were not. They were caught up in Wood Badge as an end, not WB as a means to an end. All of us as Scouters are ambassadors for Scouting, whether we realize it or not. When other people know we are Scouters, that colors their perception of Scouting. The same is true of Wood Badge. We are ambassadors for the course, and other people's perceptions of that are based of how we act and treat others. 

My council:

My council NYLT and WB leadership has the right idea. They know that the courses exist to serve the units. Particularly NYLT has gone through a culture shift over the last 5 years as the folks who'd made it a good ole boys club have been put out to pasture. We've done quite a bit to break up stale cultures. Scouters can only be a Scoutmaster/Course director twice. Youth can only be SPL once. SPL's can only choose one staffer to be ASPL that they staffed with the previous year. We don't have as formal a rule on the adult side, but due to a shortage of adults volunteering for NYLT, we don't exactly need one. This has gone a long way to break up clics in our NYLT program. I'm not sure whats in place for our WB program, but I think it's similar. My council also doesn't allow a Scouter to staff Wood Badge and NYLT in the same year, in order to keep a handful of folks from controlling both programs. We're definitely not perfect, but I know things have improved quite a bit from where they were a few years ago culture wise.  

Another thing that helps in my council is we have an annual Wood Badge dinner. We pair it with a dinner at a NYLT development weekend. It serves a few purposes. It helps us advertise NYLT to troop leadership. It helps us recruit adults to NYLT staff (since most folks at the dinner are Wood Badgers.) It's also an opportunity to do a mass beading ceremony in front of people who won't be bored and it won't hijack another event. I got my beads there, because I knew my Scouts from my Troop wouldn't really care, and my Wood Badge Scoutmaster had a habit for being long-winded. We also do some silent auctioning of Scouting and WB items, the money goes to scholarships for NYLT and Wood Badge. 

Again, just my opinions and experiences, Feel free to agree or disagree. I like the feedback. As an ASM of program for an NYLT course this year, it gives me things to be on the lookout for in how we sell WB/NYLT and how we train the staff. 

[MikeS72]

5 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

Darn shame, because if the WB community a) toned down the braggadocio, and b) ditched the power point death march and focused on outdoor adventure (hiking, cooking, camping instead of sitting in a mess hall or at a picnic table), WB courses would have waiting lists of folks wanting to join. 

Thankfully, PowerPoint did not exist when I went to Wood Badge (kinda cause personal computers did not exist yet either) and there were a lot  of outdoor skills in the course.  We were in a primitive section of the council camp for a full week, and any comforts we had in our patrol site we had because we made them.

As for the lengthy beading ceremonies we see at occasional Roundtables, they did not exist either.  When I completed my ticket, I met with my mentor who gave me the beads, woggle, neckerchief, and certificate.  I still have an old black & white photo of the very brief (only about 1 minute) presentation by that same mentor a year later of my third bead.

[ParkMan]

@Sentinel947 I think that's a very good collection of the frustrations that I am reading about Wood Badge.  I fully agree - feedback is a gift.  I can't say that I see the same things, but I'm certainly fine in accepting everyone's word that they happen.  I think that our national Wood Badge leaders should be thinking about and learning from this perception.  I think Wood Badge should take the high road here.

I think a big part of being a leader is in modeling the behavior you'd hope to see in others.  So, as a Wood Badge community, lets listen, learn, and change.  These things are currently all in the spirit of the Wood Badge material.  Let's leverage them and grow.  I keep coming back to the idea that it would serve Wood Badge well if the course focused some time and energy on the idea of being an Ambassador for Scouting. Underscore that often it's not what you do, but how you do it that is remembered.

While I understand the frustration, it still feels off to me that as Scouters we justify these sorts of generalizations and criticisms of Wood Badgers as a whole.  Why is it okay for the Scouter community to treat an entire community with disdain like this?  I guess I don't understand how in an organization that is so modeled on values and leadership, it's considered OK simply because "they've earned it."

[malraux]

I do think there’s an issue where the worst cases stand out. If a 60 person class has 90% of the people have simple fast beading ceremony, the 6 who don’t will still stand out. 

[Sentinel947]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

@Sentinel947 I think that's a very good collection of the frustrations that I am reading about Wood Badge.  I fully agree - feedback is a gift.  I can't say that I see the same things, but I'm certainly fine in accepting everyone's word that they happen.  I think that our national Wood Badge leaders should be thinking about and learning from this perception.  I think Wood Badge should take the high road here.

I think a big part of being a leader is in modeling the behavior you'd hope to see in others.  So, as a Wood Badge community, lets listen, learn, and change.  These things are currently all in the spirit of the Wood Badge material.  Let's leverage them and grow.  I keep coming back to the idea that it would serve Wood Badge well if the course focused some time and energy on the idea of being an Ambassador for Scouting. Underscore that often it's not what you do, but how you do it that is remembered.

While I understand the frustration, it still feels off to me that as Scouters we justify these sorts of generalizations and criticisms of Wood Badgers as a whole.  Why is it okay for the Scouter community to treat an entire community with disdain like this?  I guess I don't understand how in an organization that is so modeled on values and leadership, it's considered OK simply because "they've earned it."

Yea. Again, a lot of this are local situations, so it's hard to pull hard data on this kind of thing. 

As for general criticisms, I've learned to not take it personally. I try to look at where people's opinions come from, and take them as a challenge for my own conduct, and an opportunity to effect things I can control. Maybe there are misconceptions I can correct. 

I come back to religion as a similar parallel to Scouting, and Wood Badge in general. Like proselyting a religion, we're trying to sell folks on an idea and program of self improvement and growth. If the messenger is flawed, the message, however good, will not received well. Looking at my religion, Roman Catholicism as an example, look at the many spineless bureaucrats and outright predators wearing the cardinals cassock, the church has been closing off the hearts and minds to many of the salvation possible through Jesus Christ. Not because the message is bad, but because the messengers do not inspire confidence in the listener. Even when there are faithful, pious and good clergy and laity, we cannot separate ourselves in the public perception from the shameful and evil behavior of our coreligionists. To use Scouting as example, I have an acquaintance through a mutual friend that jokingly calls me a pedophile anytime I mention Scouting. That's his perception of Scouting. How does one fix that sort of thing? 

[desertrat77]

@Sentinel947, thanks again for your insights.   I appreciate you taking the time to share them with us.  

I wish that WB communities throughout the BSA would follow your example.  Alas, many do not, and actively encourage the behaviors you are trying to modify.

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by desertrat77