I HATE the new YPT rules

[TWCub]

So where and when is this campout?  I'm a female; I like camping; I'm registered; I have YPT.  Can I bring our girl Webelos den?

[Buggie]

On 10/5/2018 at 8:58 AM, shortridge said:

I think our program is failing our adults if they don’t know how to welcome Scouts to their campsite. Is there something else to this?

I should have gone back and checked to see if anything really did post or not.  And looks like it did post, twice in the same message.  Funny that.  So below is the same sort of response from the other day. 

 

Bah. I tried replying to this on the weekend, but it didn't take.  

I don't think there was anything to this, however I can't read minds. What it sounded like to me was that the scouter in charge hadn't anticipated the girl Webelos unit's situations and went into lock down paralysis mode not knowing how things should be done and not wanting to get in trouble for anything. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Without a whole lot of direction from national (your call on how much/little has been received, and I think LITTLE adequately describes it), the scouter probably erred on the over cautious side. And irritated those who felt that the girls should have been allowed to visit as they pleased. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Buggie
didn't realize what I had tried to post did post

[Pale Horse]

On 10/5/2018 at 3:26 PM, ParkMan said:

Ok - then how about we only let scouts who's parents go attend?  Since when has it ever been a requirement that your parents attend?

I was never advocated that the BSA had to admit girls.  But now that it's happened, we've got to be fair.  If a troop invites a den with girls, the troop has to make sure it has the staff to support it.  If it doesn't that's the troops fault - don't blame the girl you invited.  What kind of example is that?

Seems it's always been that case when a Scout has a particular circumstance that the current leaders aren't "capable" of handling.  

• Johnny has behavioral issues - I've seen lots of suggestions that a parent has to attend next campout or Johnny can't attend.
• Timmy has mental disabilities that only a parent or specially trained individuals can handle.

Should troops also cancel high adventure outings if a physically disabled Scout joins?  I assume not every outing would preclude their participation, but must we ensure they can attend all outings?

Maybe we just accept that not all Scouts will be able to attend every event, for various reasons...financial, physical limitations, religious or family conflicts, parents don't want to register to help their daughter attend...  

 

 

 

[ParkMan]

3 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

Seems it's always been that case when a Scout has a particular circumstance that the current leaders aren't "capable" of handling.  

• Johnny has behavioral issues - I've seen lots of suggestions that a parent has to attend next campout or Johnny can't attend.
• Timmy has mental disabilities that only a parent or specially trained individuals can handle.

Should troops also cancel high adventure outings if a physically disabled Scout joins?  I assume not every outing would preclude their participation, but must we ensure they can attend all outings?

Maybe we just accept that not all Scouts will be able to attend every event, for various reasons...financial, physical limitations, religious or family conflicts, parents don't want to register to help their daughter attend...  

I'm following your point.

I do think it would be good for a Troop to apply the same standard to any member.  But, I do think folks would look at behavior problems warranting a parent and physically or mentally disabled scout requiring specially trained individuals as unique cases.  I don't think being a girl is an exception case like these.

A "boys only" troop asking any invited, co-ed dens to provide proper supervision seems like the right way to go.   So, in cases like the one in this topic - there is an easy solution with no impact on the troop.  I do understand that this specific case is unique.

My fundamental point is that a Scout pack or troop consists of Scouts.  When we do events, we do events as a Troop.  If you're a pack or troop that has both male and female members - I think you operate as one troop.  It just doesn't feel right to say - "ok boys, we have enough adults for you.  sorry girls, we don't have enough adults for you".  You operate as a single unit.  I understand that a single troop with boys & girls is not allowed yet - but some troops will act that way.

I fully appreciate how difficult it is for units to find enough adults to go camping as it is now.  I know that suggesting that we make it harder seems crazy.  I just think that it's the job of the Troop Committee to think through the impact of operating an co-ed program.  But, when those situations happen, a troop or pack should do what we normally do when we have insufficient adult YPT coverage - we cancel the event.  It's disappointing to the Scouts - but it also reminds adults that their involvement is needed to operate the program.  I cannot count how many times in our troop the threat of a canceled campout gets parents to sign up to attend.

Edited October 8, 2018 by ParkMan
deleted extra space at end

[Eagle94-A1]

UPDATE: Good news, bad news.

The Cubmaster found a female registered DL to camp with the female Webelos. We will be meeting the new YP double standards. That's the good news.

Bad news it's one of the helicopter moms with the troop. This was the mom who showed up last year to camporee to camp with her Lion Cub Scout. This was because the DE decided to have a fishing derby at the same time as camporee. Sadly the Lion Cub was not closely supervised and did cause some problems. This DL is also asssuming all camp outs with the troop to be family camp outs, and doesn't see why it's a problem that her 12 year old son is sneaking out of his tent to sleep with dad and/or entire family.

So the female Webelos is good to go.

On another note,  I now realize that more adults affiliated with the troop want the Family Scouting model like Cub Scouts than want a true Scouting program based upon the Patrol Method. SM being OK with a Tiger Cub camping with the troop during camporee as well as adults planning a troop family camp out without input of the PLC made me realize this last nite.   I am tired of trying to get the troop back on course, and I do not see any hope of change at this point. I am resigned to go with the flow until either A) my sons get tired of the situation and transfer or B) they earn Eagle and leave.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Eagle94-A1

[ParkMan]

@Eagle94-A1 I'm sorry to hear about your ongoing frustrations with your troop.  I think of you and your troop often when people start to talk about Family Scouting.  I wish I had some wisdom from my travels - but do not.  I fully understand that unless you are the Scoutmaster or Committee Chair, your hands are tied to the extent upon which you can change the culture.  In the absence of this, we get to try to encourage folks to share our views - but it is tough.  All my best.

[DuctTape]

The term Family Scouting was an extremely poor choice by BSA if it truly means what they stated; a one stop shop for families. Obviously family's and scouters are implementing it as "the entire family is together". That is disappointing. BSA has really lost its edge on how to market effectively.

Strange how so many come from the business world and are terrible at marketing. Or maybe these ceos and business execs don't really understand the product. It wouldn't be the first time, as it happens in business world a heckuva lot. Yet "we" think we need to pay them 300x + the average employee wage. 

[Jameson76]

5 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

The term Family Scouting was an extremely poor choice by BSA if it truly means what they stated; a one stop shop for families. Obviously family's and scouters are implementing it as "the entire family is together". That is disappointing. BSA has really lost its edge on how to market effectively.

Strange how so many come from the business world and are terrible at marketing. Or maybe these ceos and business execs don't really understand the product. It wouldn't be the first time, as it happens in business world a heckuva lot. Yet "we" think we need to pay them 300x + the average employee wage. 

Agree on Family Scouting

 

Sadly many have lost the focus of Scouting in the rush to "Family" scouting.  Scouting was NEVER intended or designed to be a "Family" event or activity.  The dens were designed to be "patrols" with the Den Leader as the patrol leader.  They are supposed to do things as a group WITHOUT Mom and Dad and family being involved.  Go off and do stuff that they experience from THEIR perspective.  Over time the family camping, the siblings, etc have lessened that and made it more the circus that Cubs is.

 

Now we can see that creeping into Scouts.  We have more focus on advancement and less focus on the journey and the experience.  Unfortunately I expect the planned extensions for Eagles will not be the only coming change to requirements.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

I agree with poor choice of words for allowing girls into all programs.

Regarding Cub Scouts, I think the biggest problem is that packs are not implementing the Webelos years properly. Instead of getting the parents to slowly back away and let the Webelos do things on their own, they are continuing to treat the Webelos as Cub Scouts. Webelos only activities are now turning into famly events, and that expectation continues into Boy Scouts.

Regarding the troop situation, I think my oldest's breaking point will be reached. As you know, the CO decided to start a separate girls only troop. Several Scouters in the current troop will alos be involved with the girls troop. The comment that the girls' troop will be going to summer camp with the boys was made in a public forum and oldest saw it. If the girls' troop will be in a separate campsite, he won't have a problem. If we are sharing a campsite, then he will transfer. He's going to ask for clarification on that comment because he is not happy about it.

[Eagle94-A1]

UPDATE: Found out the young lady will NOT be attending the camp out last night. When the CM found out, she told the Tiger DL she didn't need to go. Tiger DL stated she will still be going, "if it's Scouting I'm going." And if she goes her Tiger goes. 😠

Family Scouting, you gotta love it.

[ianwilkins]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

UPDATE: Found out the young lady will NOT be attending the camp out last night. When the CM found out, she told the Tiger DL she didn't need to go. Tiger DL stated she will still be going, "if it's Scouting I'm going." And if she goes her Tiger goes. 😠

Family Scouting, you gotta love it.

You're complaining about having an enthusiastic leader?

[walk in the woods]

3 minutes ago, ianwilkins said:

You're complaining about having an enthusiastic leader?

Nah, just about having a 6 year old at a scout encampment.

[ianwilkins]

41 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Nah, just about having a 6 year old at a scout encampment.

That's the age I went on my first week long scout summer camp, with my parents, dad the scout leader, mum running the stores, and looking after me. My memories of it are patchy at best. I know I knocked around with another couple of leader's kids, and the farmer's field we were in had a damp bit that may have been a pond in winter, and a hollow tree in it. I would guess the scouts were all in patrols, as they usually were, and did all their cooking and stuff themselves, as well as coming together for activities and games and so on. I guess it's possible, probably even, that I wandered over to the patrols, they let me poke the fire, and kept an eye on me. It might not have been the ideal, but it was what it was, it was that or not enough adults to run summer camp.

Oh, and lest we forget, Baden Powell took his 9 year old nephew to Brownsea for his experimental camp, though if memory serves, he was designated as BP's "orderly". So taking kids on camp is nothing new.

[Eagle94-A1]

Not only do I have problems with the 6 year old being there, but the mother does not really care a fig about the Patrol Method.  Regarding the 6 year old, he is left unsupervised, interferes with the patrol when stuff needs to get done, and when corrected by the PL or APL, yells "NO!" and continues doing stuff until a Scouter corrects him and tells him he needs to get back with his parents.

As mentioned the mom does not get the patrol method, despite being talked to about it multiple times. This is the mom who sees no problem with her son leaving the patrol campsite and hanging out with her and the family. This mom has no problem cooking food that her son will eat, and then allowing him to eat with his family.The mom doesn't see a problem with allowing her 12 year old son to sneak into the family tent on troop camp outs. This is the mom who got her husband and son to leave summer camp and sleep in a hotel one night, only having the husband call AFTER he was at the hotel. They knew reception at the camp is spotty, and it was sheer luck that one of the other adults got the text message stating dad and Scout were at the hotel and would be back in the morning. From my perspective, the mom doesn't understand Scouting, and only wants her son to be an Eagle.

 

She may be an enthusiastic CUB SCOUT leader, be she is problem as a BOY SCOUT, soon to be SCOUTS BSA, Scouter.

[Wëlënakwsu]

Tiger DL attending Camp-O-Ree… isn’t this up to the Troop or District?

New female Webelos not attending Camp-O-Ree… it’s for the better. 

A Webelos age girl joins Pack with no other Webelos girls is put in co-ed Den with no female Leader.  New girl is then invited to attend a Camp-O-Ree occurring a few weeks later under the auspices by a boy’s Troop that has no female Leader that goes camping. In my summary… while well intentioned , inviting her was a mistake.   It does not work starting a new Den or Troop with only one potential Scout. 

Two woman leaders are acceptable for boys, but two men are not for girls… if I could rule by edict… I’d require two adults, one of which must be male for boy Dens and Troops! In 2014 Scouting Magazine cited 41% of American children being raised by single mothers and Scouting’s value of male role models.