I HATE the new YPT rules

[shortridge]

1 minute ago, Buggie said:

However the girl unit was not allowed to visit anyone because they were girls and those in charge didn't know how to handle that.

I think our program is failing our adults if they don’t know how to welcome Scouts to their campsite. Is there something else to this?

Edited October 5, 2018 by shortridge

[walk in the woods]

I have really mixed emotions about the advice to find a DE, scouter from another pack, any warm female body, to solve the issue.  Even if we remove gender from the issue the conversation is basically:

We don't have the leadership to meet the YPT requirements so we're going to bring in a complete stranger from the other side of the council.  Nobody knows him/her but that's ok, they took the online training.

Gotta say, I wouldn't sign my kid up for that solution.

[Hawkwin]

1 minute ago, walk in the woods said:

I have really mixed emotions about the advice to find a DE, scouter from another pack, any warm female body, to solve the issue.  Even if we remove gender from the issue the conversation is basically:

We don't have the leadership to meet the YPT requirements so we're going to bring in a complete stranger from the other side of the council.  Nobody knows him/her but that's ok, they took the online training.

Gotta say, I wouldn't sign my kid up for that solution.

By comparison, if you had three new girls and one of the mom's volunteered to be a YPT ADL, that new mom would be just as much of a stranger to everyone but her own daughter. At least if you get an existing scouter, you should have at least some assumption of prior good behavior. You don't have that at all with a new adult to your unit.

[walk in the woods]

2 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

By comparison, if you had three new girls and one of the mom's volunteered to be a YPT ADL, that new mom would be just as much of a stranger to everyone but her own daughter. At least if you get an existing scouter, you should have at least some assumption of prior good behavior. You don't have that at all with a new adult to your unit.

Well, I'm a small town scouter, that scenario never happens.  Everybody knows someone who knows everyone.

[malraux]

Related question: Buddy system. What are the rules for mix gender buddies? On our recent cub scout camp out, we ran into the issue of how to deal with mixed gender buddies. The G2SS appears to be silent on the issue. Some cite the new YPT training as saying no mixed gender buddies. I don't recall that, but might have missed it.

[T2Eagle]

6 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

I have really mixed emotions about the advice to find a DE, scouter from another pack, any warm female body, to solve the issue.  Even if we remove gender from the issue the conversation is basically:

We don't have the leadership to meet the YPT requirements so we're going to bring in a complete stranger from the other side of the council.  Nobody knows him/her but that's ok, they took the online training.

Gotta say, I wouldn't sign my kid up for that solution.

If a smaller troop, say 5 scouts, was scheduled to go to a camporee, but couldn't get a second adult to camp with them, I don't think anyone would hesitate to offer them a scouter from the district or another troop to make sure their scouts could camp.

This situation is no different.  It has nothing to do with the gender of ether the scouts or the leaders.  It is not uncommon for troops to sometimes struggle with this and for other scouters to help.  I've done this a handful of times over the years.

 

[Hawkwin]

7 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Well, I'm a small town scouter, that scenario never happens.  Everybody knows someone who knows everyone. 

So you can say with confidence that you know in advance as to whether or not an adult might end up being a sexual predator just because you know them socially?

 

[walk in the woods]

1 minute ago, Hawkwin said:

So you can say with confidence that you know in advance as to whether or not an adult might end up being a sexual predator just because you know them socially?

 

I'm saying in the unit I served in a small town the COR was actively involved in multiple organizations, as was the SM, and the other leaders.  The 20% of the people that do the 80% of work knew each other because the worked together on many activities and organizations.  Many of them were multi-generational residents.  If a total stranger showed up, registered or not, they would not have been allowed any access to our unit.  If a new parent, new to town, showed up they would be limited in what we allowed them to do with the unit until we got to know them.  They certainly wouldn't be allowed to be the second adult on an outing with only two adults six days after they registered.  Now, could a sexual predator spend years infiltrating the unit, building trust with all the parents and leaders, sure, it's possible but that's true regardless.  Anybody can violate trust.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, RichardB said:

You get to chose your response.   Seems a little over the top on a forum.    Perhaps look at the fact you have a clear example where a young lady is being put into a situation where she is the lone female and that is a risk that has been identified and deemed unacceptable.    The situation that shouldn't happen with Scouting's Barriers to Abuse.   

The link to the Barriers to Abuse in case you missed it.....https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a

A few FAQ's:  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/ 

What Family Scouting is supposed to be:  https://www.scouting.org/familyscouting/  

 

 

 

Richard,

I am pointing out the double standard in the rules, i.e. how the new rules say it is ok for two females to take a bunch of male Webelos  camping, but not two male leaders with a bunch of female Webelos. Also pointing out how parents no longer count towards 2 deep. Also pointing out how even if her father goes with her and is her buddy, she still cannot go because of no female Scouters. SHE WILL BE CAMPING WITH HER DAD! (emphasis) He's was pumped up about camporee when I talked to them about it.

 

All,

Yes I will shortly scrambling like crazy to find a female Scouter, and am enlisting the CM's help in the matter. In fact may be calling a friend of mine from another district to see if she could help.

 

59 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Hypothetically, say you did cancel.  You get some ticked off Scouts & leaders.  You then go to the next Committee meeting and have a frank discussion.  "Folks, we had to cancel this trip because we didn't have any female adults."  There would be some discussion - perhaps some even pretty tense.  But, I bet that it would set some things in motion.  I expect you'd start to see a few female adults start to show up at meetings and trips.

In addition to having ticked off Scouts and Scouters,  we would lose 1/2 the Scouts in the troop and several Scouters. The Scouts themselves brought up this exact situation, canceling a trip due to lack of female Scouters, when discussing becoming "linked troops."  They would transfer or quit altogether. Several of those Scouts have parents involved as Scouters. I know I go where my sons go, and believe many others would follow their sons. So cancelling is not an option.

[walk in the woods]

16 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

If a smaller troop, say 5 scouts, was scheduled to go to a camporee, but couldn't get a second adult to camp with them, I don't think anyone would hesitate to offer them a scouter from the district or another troop to make sure their scouts could camp.

This situation is no different.  It has nothing to do with the gender of ether the scouts or the leaders.  It is not uncommon for troops to sometimes struggle with this and for other scouters to help.  I've done this a handful of times over the years.

 

I have too (in both directions), but, I already had a relationship with the other scouters involved.  I wasn't a stranger.

[RichardB]

14 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Richard,

I am pointing out the double standard in the rules, i.e. how the new rules say it is ok for two females to take a bunch of male Webelos  camping, but not two male leaders with a bunch of female Webelos. Also pointing out how parents no longer count towards 2 deep. Also pointing out how even if her father goes with her and is her buddy, she still cannot go because of no female Scouters. SHE WILL BE CAMPING WITH HER DAD! (emphasis) He's was pumped up about camporee when I talked to them about it.

 

Okay, so did you read the FAQ's on that topic?   Disagreement with the answer doesn't mean it's incorrect.   (emphasis added below)

Q: Why is a female adult 21 years of age or over required whenever female youth are present, but not the other way around?

A. The requirement to ensure that a registered female adult is present at activities serving girls is not dissimilar to policies we’ve enacted in the past for Venturing when male and female adult leaders were required for certain co-ed activities. At this time, we believe that these are the best, most appropriate measures for our movement. We hope you understand that these requirements were given substantial and thorough consideration.

    

[shortridge]

That still doesn’t answer the “Why,” but I understand that’s the lawyered reply.

Can you address the issue of a female Scout camping with her father that @Eagle94-A1 raised? Thanks!

Edited October 5, 2018 by shortridge

[Eagle94-A1]

20 minutes ago, RichardB said:

Okay, so did you read the FAQ's on that topic?   Disagreement with the answer doesn't mean it's incorrect.   (emphasis added below)   

 

Yes I did read the FAQs. And I am pointing out how it is a double standard that is insulting to male volunteers.

And as Shortridge pointed out, the issue of her camping with her father was never addressed. I though the entire purpose of allowing girls was to be "Family Friendly." If a girl cannot camp with ther dad, doesn't seem to be Family Friendly to me.

[ParkMan]

 

53 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

In addition to having ticked off Scouts and Scouters,  we would lose 1/2 the Scouts in the troop and several Scouters. The Scouts themselves brought up this exact situation, canceling a trip due to lack of female Scouters, when discussing becoming "linked troops."  They would transfer or quit altogether. Several of those Scouts have parents involved as Scouters. I know I go where my sons go, and believe many others would follow their sons. So cancelling is not an option.

I'm not trying to force you to cancel.  I think you're doing a great thing by trying to someone to attend to make it possible for her to go.

Since you feel hamstrung by the threat from your Scouts, let me lay out my thinking:

Here we've got a case where a troop has invited a Webelos den to go camporee with you.  You are now faced with the prospect of having to tell a member of that den she cannot attend simply because she is a girl.  If I recall correctly you've got something like 30 scouts in your troop. That's 20+ moms and/or wives who could attend.  But, they choose not to.  I'm a big believer in the idea that we succeed as a troop and we fail as a troop.  If the troop members want to go, this seems like a solvable problem.  That they have not stepped up is a choice of the troop. 

So, here we have a case where the Troop could do the right thing if it wanted to.  If the Troop wanted to do the right thing someone would step up.  But, the Troop is choosing not to.  This is not a case of @Eagle94-A1 forcing the cancellation.  This is a case of the Troop forcing the cancellation.

In my mind it's a question of "doing the right thing" or avoiding the potential backlash.  I just think as Scouters, we should do the right thing.

Edited October 5, 2018 by ParkMan
fixed the link

[DuctTape]

48 minutes ago, RichardB said:

Okay, so did you read the FAQ's on that topic?   Disagreement with the answer doesn't mean it's incorrect.   (emphasis added below)

Q: Why is a female adult 21 years of age or over required whenever female youth are present, but not the other way around?

A. The requirement to ensure that a registered female adult is present at activities serving girls is not dissimilar to policies we’ve enacted in the past for Venturing when male and female adult leaders were required for certain co-ed activities. At this time, we believe that these are the best, most appropriate measures for our movement. We hope you understand that these requirements were given substantial and thorough consideration.

    

The answer is neither correct, nor incorrect. It describes the decision. In bold you state it is the "belief" these decisions are best... Those who disagree are pointing out why they disagree with the decision.

As someone in leadership of many organizations I can say with certainty it is very common for initial decisions for new ideas to eventually be changed. The question is whether leadership listens to the concerns regarding the initial decision and makes appropriate adjustments, or whether they double-down and insist they are correct. I can say with certainty that the latter does not bode well for the decision makers. 

I advise the powers that be look into the concerns, and develop an appropriate response which is not telling the stakeholders they are wrong.