Boys-only weeks at camp

[shortridge]

@qwazse, I fully understand that the councils are looking at it as a business decision. But it strikes me as fundamentally out of synch with the aims, methods and values of Scouts BSA. The troops are equal; the leaders are equal; the programs are equal; the Scouts are certainly equal. Why not give them all equal opportunity to attend camp? Why grant boys priority status?

That sends a very negative signal to the new Scouts who will be joining beginning Feb. 1. The messages include:

- Boys are more important than you

- Boys have the power to exclude you

- You have to take the leftovers and castoffs

Are those Scoutlike values and messages?

6 minutes ago, gblotter said:

So if a girl-only troop gravitates to a girl-only week at a BSA camp, I supposed that means those girls consider boys to be second class citizens, right?

Does such a thing exist, or are you stuffing a man full of straw?

[cocomax]

My troop and I have never had any problems with girls running around our summer camp, I do not foresee any problems with girls at the camp in the future. 

All our camp problems have caused by ADULTS. 

.  .  .  last year we had a young adult male staffer show up in our camp most days at noon,  eat our food,  play music on his iphone  as loud as possible and then play video games on his switch and complain about how life sucks. . .   it was not much fun when he showed up. 

Last year I ended up walking behind a group of young girls at camp talking to one another, one said to the others, "You know what is wrong with this summer camp? . . .  there are way too many boys!"

I just thought that was funny.

 

 

[Chisos]

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

Also be aware that a unit-run camp does not count for OA eligibility.

Actually it maybe would count...

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

Though there does seem to be some incorrect information floating around that would suggest that it wouldn't.

 

[gblotter]

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

Does such a thing exist, or are you stuffing a man full of straw?

Yes, there are girl-only weeks currently on the 2019 calendar at some BSA camps. What bigots those people must be.

Edited October 4, 2018 by gblotter

[Eagledad]

4 minutes ago, Chisos said:

Actually it maybe would count...

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

Though there does seem to be some incorrect information floating around that would suggest that it wouldn't.

 

It comes down to local interpretation. I know scouts would have got credit for a troop summer camp in our council back when I was SM.

Barry

[shortridge]

That says it has to meet BSA resident camp standards. Under those standards, the camp director and program director must be National Camp School-certified. If you’re 10 minutes away from EMS, your health officer has to be at least an EMT or paramedic. You have to have an NCS-certified aquatics director if you do aquatics programs. And more ...

That’s a very high bar for a basic Scout troop.

2 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Yes - there are girl-only weeks currently on the calendar at some BSA camps? What bigots those people must be.

Do you mind pointing out where?

[gblotter]

29 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Do you mind pointing out where?

I was anticipating your question. The camp I had in mind is Camp Baldwin in the Cascade Pacific Council. However, I just revisited their website so I could send you a screenshot and discovered that they have reversed course. No girl-only weeks at Camp Baldwin after all, so I retract my claim.

Edited October 4, 2018 by gblotter

[gblotter]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

- Boys are more important than you

- Boys have the power to exclude you

- You have to take the leftovers and castoffs

Are those Scoutlike values and messages?

So I'll just assume you also ascribe those negative traits to GSUSA which excludes boys at every level. How very unScoutlike of them, right? Or does your door of condemnation swing only one way (against boys)?

Edited October 4, 2018 by gblotter

[shortridge]

15 minutes ago, gblotter said:

So I'll just assume you also ascribe those negative traits to GSUSA which excludes boys at every level. How very unScoutlike of them, right? Or does your door of condemnation swing only one way (against boys)?

I’m not involved in GSUSA, and this thread isn’t in the GSUSA forum. I don’t concern myself with how they run that program. They made a decision that’s best for their organization, and that’s their business.

I *am* involved in the BSA, which is adopting a unified program offering what purports to be equal program and opportunities to members who are girls and members who are boys. Allowing one troop or CO to unilaterally block off program opportunities for another troop or CO is just flatly unfair. I would have the same issue if girls’ troops were blocking boys’ troops from attending.

The message that is sent is that one kind of Scout is more important and has more power than another kind of Scout. That’s wrong, that’s not what Scouting is about, and that’s why I care.

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by shortridge

[walk in the woods]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

That sends a very negative signal to the new Scouts who will be joining beginning Feb. 1. The messages include:

- Boys are more important than you

- Boys have the power to exclude you

- You have to take the leftovers and castoffs

Only for the perpetual victimization crowd.  The message it sends otherwise is:

- Different people value different things.  Some scouts value an all-male experience.  It's diversity that makes us great

- Voluntary association is a hallmark of free societies.

- Nobody is invalidating you, you're doing it to yourselves if you let this bother you

 

Besides, if the BSA really believes in the value of single-gender scouting (that's why we have separate gender troops in Scouts BSA), then boys-only and girls-only weeks are logical extensions of that stated goal.

Edited October 4, 2018 by walk in the woods
added final though.

[HashTagScouts]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

@qwazse, I fully understand that the councils are looking at it as a business decision. But it strikes me as fundamentally out of synch with the aims, methods and values of Scouts BSA. The troops are equal; the leaders are equal; the programs are equal; the Scouts are certainly equal. Why not give them all equal opportunity to attend camp? Why grant boys priority status?

That sends a very negative signal to the new Scouts who will be joining beginning Feb. 1. The messages include:

- Boys are more important than you

- Boys have the power to exclude you

- You have to take the leftovers and castoffs

Are those Scoutlike values and messages?

Does such a thing exist, or are you stuffing a man full of straw?

The aim of the policy change was separate, but equal.  Fully expect that is going to change, and probably in the not so distant future, but right now, that is the policy.  The intent of many camps offering boy only weeks and girl only weeks is so that those units that desired to be same-gender, and not be linked, can have their summer camp program same gender as well.  For some other camps, it may be entirely a matter of facility- not a lot of camps have female showerhouses on the same scale as male showerhouses, for example.

There are also the YPT issues that will be in consideration.  While a number of camps employ female staffers, I would submit that the number of those that are 21+ are a smaller number.  While a great number of activities at camp happen in the outdoors, not all do.  Two female scouts are working on Mammal Study MB and need to use resources inside the nature cabin- your male staffers cannot be alone with them, you need to have a female 21+ present. 

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

That says it has to meet BSA resident camp standards. Under those standards, the camp director and program director must be National Camp School-certified. If you’re 10 minutes away from EMS, your health officer has to be at least an EMT or paramedic. You have to have an NCS-certified aquatics director if you do aquatics programs. And more ...

That’s a very high bar for a basic Scout troop.

Do you mind pointing out where?

Except is is the troop SM that signs off that a scout is eligible for the vote.  the local Lodge nor National OA has any idea whether the youth actually did it or not.  Do you think an SM is going invalidate his/her own program?

Edited October 4, 2018 by HashTagScouts

[shortridge]

41 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

While a great number of activities at camp happen in the outdoors, not all do.  Two female scouts are working on Mammal Study MB and need to use resources inside the nature cabin- your male staffers cannot be alone with them, you need to have a female 21+ present. 

I think that there is some confusion as to the rules. The rules require a 21+ female leader present at all activities. The activity is summer camp, not the MB class.

Under your interpretation, all classes or instructional sessions involving female Scouts must have a 21+ female leader present. That is simply impossible in a summer camp environment.

[shortridge]

48 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Except is is the troop SM that signs off that a scout is eligible for the vote.  the local Lodge nor National OA has any idea whether the youth actually did it or not.  Do you think an SM is going invalidate his/her own program?

And yet those are the rules, which the SM is fully aware of.

Edited October 4, 2018 by shortridge

[Saltface]

12 hours ago, shortridge said:

For summer 2019, my council has set aside a quarter of the total camp weeks for  only boys’ troops. Is anyone else seeing or doing this? Was there a significant demand from your existing troops to segregate summer camp like that?

One of our council camps is offering two LDS sessions. These would be de facto boy only. The council will provide dining facility staff and some senior staff members, the troops will have to find their own MBCs and plan their own programs. I haven't heard of any takers.

We'll be doing our own summer camp.