Whittling chip policy - dealing with infractions

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

 For general consideration: Can we use the modern term “safety circle” to put the emphasis on the desired outcome, rather than “blood circle,” which focuses on the negative potential outcome?

Blood circle sounds way cooler.  I get that it's not what we want to encourage, but my scouts were much more impressed when we said blood circle.  I'd have filed & forgotten safety circle.  Blood circle - that I'd remember.

[RichardB]

38 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Blood circle sounds way cooler.

This.

[Eagle94-A1]

4 hours ago, Terasec said:

fake knives is just 1 step in teaching out of many,

with cubs have to remember they are kids, 

and we are not their parents we do not know each individual kids well enough to just jump and skip the basics,

 

Sadly I am reading where too many packs are ONLY using the fakes. 

As for Cubs being kids, I remember that too. I remember being a Wolf and whittling my PWD car because my father refused to help. And while pencil sharpeners were around when I was a kid, I know my way older brothers did bring pocket knives to school to sharpen pencils.

And who said I am skipping basics using the real deal? I'm just not using fakes.

As for parents, communication is key. First time as a DL, talking to the parents I found out one of the grand dads was a professional woodcarver. Got in touch with him and had him teach the class. WOW it was awesome. I even learned some tricks. Second time, parents had no problem. This last time, I talked to the parents, including last year's DL who did not think a pocket knife is safe, and got them over their worries. Even telling them the Den Chief will be teaching and me assisting, they are fine.

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Blood circle sounds way cooler.  I get that it's not what we want to encourage, but my scouts were much more impressed when we said blood circle.  I'd have filed & forgotten safety circle.  Blood circle - that I'd remember.

Yeah. we used safety circle back in the day. Never heard the term "blood circle" until I moved to NC and was staffing an IOLS course. it IS way cooler, and something they remember.

 

Now on a slight tangent, I would love ideas on teaching whittling chip, heck everything scouting related, to a one handed Cub. One of my Cubs only has one hand, and I have been thinking about how to teach teaching whittling chip to her. So I would love to hear any ideas on teaching a handicap Cub how to use and sharpen a knife.

[perdidochas]

On 10/2/2018 at 11:21 AM, malraux said:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/510-033(17)baloo.pdf page 72

“ There is no such thing as “cutting a corner off” for infractions. The rules are followed at all times. The Whittling Chip card stays as a complete unit.”

They are taking away some of the fun and tradition for no good reason. That said, having been a Cub/Boy Scout leader for almost ten years, I never personally saw anything worth taking off Whittlin'/Totin' chip corners--the threat of it (which is now gone) was enough.  There was a major incident in the Troop the year before my sons joined it, so that may have been part of it. 

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Blood circle sounds way cooler.  I get that it's not what we want to encourage, but my scouts were much more impressed when we said blood circle.  I'd have filed & forgotten safety circle.  Blood circle - that I'd remember.

Is this an example of girls taking boy out of boy scouting? 

We've had discussions under the theme of keeping the program fun for the boys, instead of the adults. I remember one discussion where the CM asked if he should keep singing the scouts' favorite song, "Greasy Grimy Gofer guts" at the pack meetings. SM's struggle with the same questions of their scouts as well. Blood Circle has been around since at least the 60s.

Barry

[perdidochas]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

 For general consideration: Can we use the modern term “safety circle” to put the emphasis on the desired outcome, rather than “blood circle,” which focuses on the negative potential outcome?

I disagree totally, on pedagogical reasoning.  A Cub Scout is much more likely to remember "blood circle" than "safety circle."  The language is much more vivid, and will stay in their brains longer.  We don't need to make Scouting sterile and boring. 

[Eagledad]

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Now on a slight tangent, I would love ideas on teaching whittling chip, heck everything scouting related, to a one handed Cub. One of my Cubs only has one hand, and I have been thinking about how to teach teaching whittling chip to her. So I would love to hear any ideas on teaching a handicap Cub how to use and sharpen a knife.

Show the scout and his family what you are supposed to teach and ask their help to come up with ideas. He isn't the first or last handicap scout, your new ideas may help a lot of boys.

Barry 

[perdidochas]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Blood circle sounds way cooler.  I get that it's not what we want to encourage, but my scouts were much more impressed when we said blood circle.  I'd have filed & forgotten safety circle.  Blood circle - that I'd remember.

My thoughts exactly.  We don't need to make things boring. In fact, for teaching boys, we need to make it the opposite. We need to make it exciting and real, not sterile and safe.

9 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Sadly I am reading where too many packs are ONLY using the fakes. 

As for Cubs being kids, I remember that too. I remember being a Wolf and whittling my PWD car because my father refused to help. And while pencil sharpeners were around when I was a kid, I know my way older brothers did bring pocket knives to school to sharpen pencils.

And who said I am skipping basics using the real deal? I'm just not using fakes.

As for parents, communication is key. First time as a DL, talking to the parents I found out one of the grand dads was a professional woodcarver. Got in touch with him and had him teach the class. WOW it was awesome. I even learned some tricks. Second time, parents had no problem. This last time, I talked to the parents, including last year's DL who did not think a pocket knife is safe, and got them over their worries. Even telling them the Den Chief will be teaching and me assisting, they are fine.

Yeah. we used safety circle back in the day. Never heard the term "blood circle" until I moved to NC and was staffing an IOLS course. it IS way cooler, and something they remember.

 

Now on a slight tangent, I would love ideas on teaching whittling chip, heck everything scouting related, to a one handed Cub. One of my Cubs only has one hand, and I have been thinking about how to teach teaching whittling chip to her. So I would love to hear any ideas on teaching a handicap Cub how to use and sharpen a knife.

IMHO, he needs to be allowed to use a small sheath knife (or a switchblade :-)  )

[Treflienne]

5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

s this an example of girls taking boy out of boy scouting? 

We've had discussions under the theme of keeping the program fun for the boys, instead of the adults. I remember one discussion where the CM asked if he should keep singing the scouts' favorite song, "Greasy Grimy Gofer guts" at the pack meetings. SM's struggle with the same questions of their scouts as well. Blood Circle has been around since at least the 60s.

Well, some of the girl scouts were singing "greasy grimy gofer guts" back in the 1970s.    I haven't heard it recently, though.

[malraux]

10 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Is this an example of girls taking boy out of boy scouting? 

No.

[perdidochas]

12 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Is this an example of girls taking boy out of boy scouting? 

We've had discussions under the theme of keeping the program fun for the boys, instead of the adults. I remember one discussion where the CM asked if he should keep singing the scouts' favorite song, "Greasy Grimy Gofer guts" at the pack meetings. SM's struggle with the same questions of their scouts as well. Blood Circle has been around since at least the 60s.

Barry

No, it's adults taking the boy out of boy scouting.  Sterile language, like "safety circle," are bureaucratic and meant to sound benign. The last thing you need when it comes to safety.  Blood circle tells me that anything in that circle can possibly be cut, and I need to be careful with it. Safety circle just tells me that  I need to be safe inside that circle or worse, that it's the safe place.  I think blood circle is the best possible way to describe that for young people (boys and girls). 

[Eagledad]

5 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

No, it's adults taking the boy out of boy scouting.  Sterile language, like "safety circle," are bureaucratic and meant to sound benign. The last thing you need when it comes to safety.  Blood circle tells me that anything in that circle can possibly be cut, and I need to be careful with it. Safety circle just tells me that  I need to be safe inside that circle or worse, that it's the safe place.  I think blood circle is the best possible way to describe that for young people (boys and girls). 

Girls too? Ooh yuk!

[Terasec]

29 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Now on a slight tangent, I would love ideas on teaching whittling chip, heck everything scouting related, to a one handed Cub. One of my Cubs only has one hand, and I have been thinking about how to teach teaching whittling chip to her. So I would love to hear any ideas on teaching a handicap Cub how to use and sharpen a knife.

bsa allows exceptions to accommodate handicaps,

I just tried opening a small folder 1 handed,

takes a little figuring out, I held the handle pinched with thumb and middle finger, used pointer finger to pull up on the blade,

then used edge of desk to open it fully,

I would teach her to open close a folder, so she gets sense of accomplishment, give her some time, but don't let her miss the rest of the lesson, beacause she hasn't figured it out,

if it takes too long help her out, and tell her she can keep practicing later,

also try doing so yourself, once you figure it out, easier to teach her

 

[malraux]

15 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Now on a slight tangent, I would love ideas on teaching whittling chip, heck everything scouting related, to a one handed Cub. One of my Cubs only has one hand, and I have been thinking about how to teach teaching whittling chip to her. So I would love to hear any ideas on teaching a handicap Cub how to use and sharpen a knife.

I would imagine knife use would be not as bad as something like knots.

Knife skills: opening and safely closing => well, some knives are designed to be opened one handed. You/she might have to work out how to handle a knife with a locking mechanism, or select a knife without it.

Using it => basic idea stays the same, always cut away from you. It might involve using a clamp to hold wood in place. That seems adaptable.

I would also consider using a fixed knife properly to be a reasonable adaptation in this case, but I'd want to double check the rules on adapting requirements. (looks like for cub scouts its very much a whatever sort of thing).

[TMSM]

Our older scout who is the Instructor for wood tools uses the term circle of death.