Whittling chip policy - dealing with infractions

[qwazse]

I forgot about some of the goofy replies that I posted on Bryan, that upon reflection make good sense, like why I always mix up "chip" and "chit".

 

Quote

Here's how I think about it ...
A "chit" is the paper with a checklist of principles of knife and axe safety.
By adhering to the principles laid out on the "chit", you qualify to be "Totin" a tool and "Chip" some lumber.

It's just a fun little game to represent the ideal way of learning a scout skill.
1. Reference your handbook and read about the skill.
2. Talk about what you read to an expert scout.
3. Try the skill under careful supervision of said scout.
4. Do the skill with a buddy until you are an expert too!

 

I can see how, for cubs, all of that can be an abstraction.

[SSScout]

Please note that the Whitlin' Chip and Totin Chip have no specific requirements.   There is no BSA list of "do this this way", not like tying knots or cooking or fire building.  The teaching of "safe handling" and "good tool useage" is a ultimately a local culture thing. 

If you are fortunate to have a skilled craftsman to teach your Cubs and Scouts, count yourself lucky.  Kids will want to "experiment" .

I was at a B&G banquet one evening, helping to hand out the PopCorn Prizes.  One young Cub, sold umpteen dollars worth of Popcorn, was awarded a multi blade pocket knife.  As the event went on, I saw him pry open ALL the blades, and Presto ! An X-Wing Fighter began zooming around his table !   I paused the festivities, went to his table, asked him directly, "Wow, that's  a neat knife. May I see it? " The Cub put the knife down, I picked it up and carefully showed him how to close it , open palm, and then handed it to the dad sitting next to the Cub, saying, "perhaps this can wait until you earn the Whitlin' Chip, eh?"  and then went back to the podium and more prizes.... 

[Thunderbird]

11 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Please note that the Whitlin' Chip and Totin Chip have no specific requirements.   There is no BSA list of "do this this way", not like tying knots or cooking or fire building.  The teaching of "safe handling" and "good tool useage" is a ultimately a local culture thing. 

If you are fortunate to have a skilled craftsman to teach your Cubs and Scouts, count yourself lucky.  Kids will want to "experiment" .

I was at a B&G banquet one evening, helping to hand out the PopCorn Prizes.  One young Cub, sold umpteen dollars worth of Popcorn, was awarded a multi blade pocket knife.  As the event went on, I saw him pry open ALL the blades, and Presto ! An X-Wing Fighter began zooming around his table !   I paused the festivities, went to his table, asked him directly, "Wow, that's  a neat knife. May I see it? " The Cub put the knife down, I picked it up and carefully showed him how to close it , open palm, and then handed it to the dad sitting next to the Cub, saying, "perhaps this can wait until you earn the Whitlin' Chip, eh?"  and then went back to the podium and more prizes.... 

The Totin' Chip requirements refer to the Boy Scout Handbook, and there is a section on "Tools" that covers the rules of safe knife use, how to take care of a pocketknife, axes, etc.  Quickly looking through the pocketknife safety section quickly, I don't see mention of the safety circle, although the safety circle is mentioned in the section on axes under "Safe Working Area".  I'm sure that every troop / pack might have some additional local rules.

Not sure about the Whittling Chip, but it looks like there is a section in the new BALOO book.  I'm not sure what's included in the Bear Den Leader Guide book.

[WisconsinMomma]

21 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I already see  packs making exceptions and changing requirements. Biggest one is the Whittling Chip requirements. It specifically states "Pocketknife," not "plastic cutlery knife" not "imitation wooden knife", and not "popsicle sticks." Irks me to no end that I need to redo Whitting Chip with my Webelos since they didn't really earn it and the previous DL thought they were "too dangerous"

 

On a side note, I am also culpable in changing the requirement. I had folks at day camp teaching Whittling Chip with wood carving knives from Paul's Supplies https://pauls-supplies.myshopify.com/collections/knives/products/carving-knife which is technically a fixed blade, not a pocket knife. But at least it was a real knife.

Wow, this is getting off topic, but we used plastic/popsicle sticks and soap and it puts a lot of peace of mind in a den leader working with multiple boys at once.  It also lets the kids work a little faster for their first time carving.  Now, soap is just for the first time. 

[Eagle1993]

4 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Wow, this is getting off topic, but we used plastic/popsicle sticks and soap and it puts a lot of peace of mind in a den leader working with multiple boys at once.  It also lets the kids work a little faster for their first time carving.  Now, soap is just for the first time. 

Getting far off topic but We use real pocketknives but make every scout have their parent come to that meeting. That way we can have our 13-15 Bears work in parallel with proper supervision.  Otherwise there would be a lot of waiting while the den leaders work with individual scouts.  We have the scouts bring their own knives.  The leaders can then point out differences, especially the impact of using a dull blade (some of these knives couldn’t cut warm butter).

 

 

 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

Guess I am an "old school Scouter." I believe using fake knives and plastic knives is wrong and does an injustice to our Cubs. To paraphrase William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt for Cub Scout appropriateness, Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM EXPERIMENT!  Teach them using pocketknives.

And I admit, I screwed up getting wood carving, fixed blade knives for day camp since the requirement specifically state "pocket knife."

 

[Eagle94-A1]

17 hours ago, Saltface said:

What used to require four perceived infractions in the eyes of an overzealous power-tripping camp counselor can now be accomplished in one perceived infraction. Progress! 

Thankfully the rule only applies to Whittling Chip, and not Totin Chip. For the moment.

[DuctTape]

The use of "fake" knives or props is a great way to introduce the skill and proper handling. But it is just the first step and should never replace the outcome.

When they have demonstrated their understanding of the safe handling protocols, etc... with the prop, then move to the real thing. The real knife/ax/saw is when they practice and get tested. 

[SSScout]

Yep. Too dangerous.  Gotta hire a  specialist, trained professional to handle the pocket knife for the Cub...,.  ((sarcasm app disabled))

If the DL thinks the real blade is too dangerous, then the Cub will pick up on that.  Again, fortunate is the Pack that has an experienced  craftsperson to teach safe handling and good tool useage.  Respect the edge.  Work SLOWLY (what is this about "let the kids work faster " ? ), carefully,  SAFELY.   Skill first,  speed much later.   Sharp edge? Yep, that's why we invented bandaids (c) . and mercurichrome.  Or iodine. Or Bactine.    

If the "Safety Circle"  is respected (arms length all around?  That would mean about two meters between Cubs, that's a lot of space. So be it.  I agree with GBB, and E94,  one must train and trust. The Cubs pick up on THAT too. Do you trust them to "do the right thing"?  And if they don't , what happens?  Somebody gets hurt, and/or the privilege gets removed.   

That being said, I once supervised a Whitlin' Chip session at a Webelos Weekend. My Boy Scout crew did a great job, working with the Cubs, one on one. They used my collection of different pocket knives, folding, lockback, many different types. Handed around, learned to sharpen, open, close safely, etc.  One Cub came up and said he wanted to earn the WC, but (he was very honest about this) expressed concern about handling such a sharp item. My Scout went and found a stick out in the adjacent woods that was the approximate shape of a knife, whitled it to good shape (what a neat demo!) , and used that with the Cub until he was ready to handle the real thing.  result: proud Cub with a certificate to show his Cubmaster. (! that Scout earned his Eagle two years later. Deserved it).

 

[malraux]

59 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

The use of "fake" knives or props is a great way to introduce the skill and proper handling. But it is just the first step and should never replace the outcome.

When they have demonstrated their understanding of the safe handling protocols, etc... with the prop, then move to the real thing. The real knife/ax/saw is when they practice and get tested. 

Thats certainly my plan: start with wooden demo models, make sure everyone can handle the basic actions (receive the knife, check blood circle, open knife, close knife, pass to the next person) before allowing everyone to use a real knife to practice with soap first, then with a soft, easy to carve piece of wood.

[Terasec]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Guess I am an "old school Scouter." I believe using fake knives and plastic knives is wrong and does an injustice to our Cubs. To paraphrase William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt for Cub Scout appropriateness, Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM EXPERIMENT!  Teach them using pocketknives.

And I admit, I screwed up getting wood carving, fixed blade knives for day camp since the requirement specifically state "pocket knife."

 

fake knives is just 1 step in teaching out of many,

with cubs have to remember they are kids, 

and we are not their parents we do not know each individual kids well enough to just jump and skip the basics,

 

[shortridge]

1 hour ago, malraux said:

check blood circle

 For general consideration: Can we use the modern term “safety circle” to put the emphasis on the desired outcome, rather than “blood circle,” which focuses on the negative potential outcome?

[Saltface]

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Guess I am an "old school Scouter." I believe using fake knives and plastic knives is wrong and does an injustice to our Cubs. To paraphrase William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt for Cub Scout appropriateness, Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM EXPERIMENT!  Teach them using pocketknives.

And I admit, I screwed up getting wood carving, fixed blade knives for day camp since the requirement specifically state "pocket knife."

 

I don't see the need for an intermediate step either. Did anyone from this generation of leaders start with a plastic knife when they were cub scouts?

[malraux]

9 minutes ago, Saltface said:

I don't see the need for an intermediate step either. Did anyone from this generation of leaders start with a plastic knife when they were cub scouts?

Checking my references, I don't see any evidence that I earned the whittling chip as a bear. It's not signed off in my handbook, so I don't know that we ever covered it in cub scouts.

[Treflienne]

48 minutes ago, shortridge said:

the modern term “safety circle”

Not so modern.   Girl Scouts were using this term at girl scout camp, back when I was a kid.