What is the future of Training?

[Buggie]

Learning from experienced scouters can be interesting especially if they've been around for awhile. Like all you fellow geezers here. But you have to take care with what they are teaching.  For example, my SM was drafted to assist with the SM training course for those who hadn't taken it online. A good endeavor to be sure. He came to me the next day having learned things himself. Things he thought were true turned out not to be. Things he didn't know about at all. It was eye opening for him. 

One of the problems with the experienced scouters is what they believe is in the program/policy/regulations/etc sometimes isn't. They've accepted it as 'true' based upon what someone in authority or the group told them. Or from making a simple mistake and not realizing it. Or not keeping up with the changes in BSA policy. I mean, look at the issues we see on this forum here with troops claiming processes and policies that only exist in their own minds. How often do you read in these forums, "show me where it is written"?

I for one though, relish any opportunity to enhance my woodcraft or outdoor skills from those who've been around the campsite a few times. I know that if I don't use my skills, I can lose them. So now and then I practice things at a meeting or camp. I don't hide what I'm doing too. And that has occasionally brought a scout over to see what it is that I'm doing. Sometimes they want to try it too. Best times are if they can show me something new! They pick up stuff from all over the place too. 

[Bowline]

I think @Eagledad nailed it with the first day training followed by more position specific training.  Especially in cubs where we get lots of new leaders who may not have much of any scouting experience.  I think this would be a very welcome beginning step before the existing 4+ hour training.

[Chris1]

I need to disagree on one main point. Training is important to let people know the RIGHT way to do things, and the rules and policies we must follow. How many time have you seen Scouters breaking advancement policy on Boards of review or SM Conferences, or adding requirements etc, because they thought it was ok, because they NEVER GOT TRAINED?  How many "experienced" scouters support singing for lost items because they remember it when they were scouts? I know many experienced scouters with lots of credentials who still defy policy and don't get things right.  

Training is important. 

One hitch with getting basic startup and nothing else, is once things run fairly smoothly they think "every thing is working fine. I don't need to take any of that training."

 

[MattR]

11 hours ago, Saltface said:

Are you not describing round table? 

(Also University of Scouting, but UoS can be hit or miss depending on the instructor or starting level of the audience).

Not in my district, so no. My guess is most round tables are not so good. I've seen some good people struggle with it. Just having a book, like the field book but covering a lot more than just outdoor skills, might really help. Figure out how to make this more consistent would really help a lot.

 

[Saltface]

18 hours ago, Chris1 said:

How many "experienced" scouters support singing for lost items because they remember it when they were scouts? I know many experienced scouters with lots of credentials who still defy policy and don't get things right.  

That's probably not a matter of instructional training, it's scout leaders that don't see it as harmful even after being told that BSA defines it as hazing. Perhaps the trainer needs to spend a little more time on persuading why it's bad. I myself could use a little more training on why you shouldn't physically fight a bully.

5 hours ago, MattR said:

Not in my district, so no. My guess is most round tables are not so good.

I'm curious. What does your district do for round table?

[cocomax]

19 hours ago, Chris1 said:

I need to disagree on one main point. Training is important to let people know the RIGHT way to do things, and the rules and policies we must follow. How many time have you seen Scouters breaking advancement policy on Boards of review or SM Conferences, or adding requirements etc, because they thought it was ok, because they NEVER GOT TRAINED?  How many "experienced" scouters support singing for lost items because they remember it when they were scouts? I know many experienced scouters with lots of credentials who still defy policy and don't get things right.  

In my area the Wood Badgers make other Wood Badgers sing for their lost stuff and the Wood Badgers that run NYLT teach the NYLT leaders to make the scouts sing for their stuff. 

I have expressed my objects to such hazing many times, only to fall on deaf ears.

The worst case of this was at the last camp-o-ree I went to. A high level Lady Wood Badger,  tried to make an Arrow of Light cub scout to dance and sing to get back his lost medical inhaler, at evening flags, before I LOUDLY PUT A STOP TO IT and took the young scout aside to explain what they tried to do was very un-scout like, scouts are not suppose to haze. . .  This hazing garbage is the number one problem I have with Wood Badgers and Beading Campfires, it sets such a bad example. 

If I was not already BLACK LISTED by the wood badge elites before that I know that I am now, for putting a stop to their "fun".

 

[Sentinel947]

57 minutes ago, cocomax said:

In my area the Wood Badgers make other Wood Badgers sing for their lost stuff and the Wood Badgers that run NYLT teach the NYLT leaders to make the scouts sing for their stuff. 

I have expressed my objects to such hazing many times, only to fall on deaf ears.

The worst case of this was at the last camp-o-ree I went to. A high level Lady Wood Badger,  tried to make an Arrow of Light cub scout to dance and sing to get back his lost medical inhaler, at evening flags, before I LOUDLY PUT A STOP TO IT and took the young scout aside to explain what they tried to do was very un-scout like, scouts are not suppose to haze. . .  This hazing garbage is the number one problem I have with Wood Badgers and Beading Campfires, it sets such a bad example. 

If I was not already BLACK LISTED by the wood badge elites before that I know that I am now, for putting a stop to their "fun".

 

For a medical inhaler? That's terrible. At least in my council, I never saw that behavior at Wood Badge, and it's prohibited at NYLT, at least the courses I've staffed. 

Again proof that training results vary from place to place, and having taken Wood Badge doesn't automatically confer some special expert status on a Scouter. 

[ParkMan]

 

42 minutes ago, cocomax said:

In my area the Wood Badgers make other Wood Badgers sing for their lost stuff and the Wood Badgers that run NYLT teach the NYLT leaders to make the scouts sing for their stuff. 

I have expressed my objects to such hazing many times, only to fall on deaf ears.

The worst case of this was at the last camp-o-ree I went to. A high level Lady Wood Badger,  tried to make an Arrow of Light cub scout to dance and sing to get back his lost medical inhaler, at evening flags, before I LOUDLY PUT A STOP TO IT and took the young scout aside to explain what they tried to do was very un-scout like, scouts are not suppose to haze. . .  This hazing garbage is the number one problem I have with Wood Badgers and Beading Campfires, it sets such a bad example. 

If I was not already BLACK LISTED by the wood badge elites before that I know that I am now, for putting a stop to their "fun".

 

There must be some really awful Wood Badge folks out there.  In my council, they've all be very friendly and accommodating.  They're at times prone to songs, critter talk, and trying to recruit for the next course - but that's about as far as I've seen it go.  I've never once heard someone with their beads look down on someone who did not.  I guess we're just lucky on our council.  It saddens me to no end that there are awful Wood Badgers out there.

Sorry

[cocomax]

28 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

 

There must be some really awful Wood Badge folks out there.  In my council, they've all be very friendly and accommodating.  They're at times prone to songs, critter talk, and trying to recruit for the next course - but that's about as far as I've seen it go.  I've never once heard someone with their beads look down on someone who did not.  I guess we're just lucky on our council.  It saddens me to no end that there are awful Wood Badgers out there.

Sorry 

    What we got out here is a case of some really awful people that are using Wood Badge as a super secret elite club to bond with others of the same mind.  They are adding stuff that is not suppose to be part of Wood Badge and they are not even teaching the Wood Badge program as written. Awful people attract more awful people and you end up with a mess like there is in at my council. 

    Around here round tables are just things that the "in" people go to to talk about the people they hate. 

    The problem here is really the people and not the program, we have awful people messing up a great idea.

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by cocomax

[ParkMan]

44 minutes ago, cocomax said:

    What we got out here is a case of some really awful people that are using Wood Badge as a super secret elite club to bond with others of the same mind.  They are adding stuff that is not suppose to be part of Wood Badge and they are not even teaching the Wood Badge program as written. Awful people attract more awful people and you end up with a mess like there is in at my council. 

    Around here round tables are just things that the "in" people go to to talk about the people they hate. 

    The problem here is really the people and not the program, we have awful people messing up a great idea.

 

That's a shame.  Around here, no-one would confuse round table for a clique.  I greatly appreciate that despite all that history, you are still willing to not have the bad eggs not taint the overall program.

All my best and I hope that things turn around.  If not, we'd love to have your experience in our council.

All the best!

Edited September 29, 2018 by ParkMan
Fixed some bad grammar

[MattR]

On 9/28/2018 at 3:25 PM, Saltface said:

I'm curious. What does your district do for round table?

We have someone new so I hope it changes but previously half of each is announcements and half is something that the council thinks is important but doesn't really help the units put on a better program. Examples are how to do ypt online, lots of versions of our new replacement for FOS, how to do internet advancement using the latest and greatest. All good things for the committees but nothing for the cub and scout masters.

I should add that people have tried before to have discussions on skills but nobody comes in and shows us something new, it's just the regulars signing to the choir.

Edited September 30, 2018 by MattR
a bit more

[Eagle94-A1]

I'm concerned about the future of training. National seems to be pushing for online training as much as possible.  A few problems with that is the lack of  meeting people, networking, and in some areas technological issues that cause you to say the heck with it and forgo training altogether. I'm reading questions on facebook groups that usually have been covered in classroom training or roundtables. Really scary part is reading some of the answers!😧

 

[ParkMan]

11 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I'm concerned about the future of training. National seems to be pushing for online training as much as possible.  A few problems with that is the lack of  meeting people, networking, and in some areas technological issues that cause you to say the heck with it and forgo training altogether. I'm reading questions on facebook groups that usually have been covered in classroom training or roundtables. Really scary part is reading some of the answers!😧

 

I suspect national saw the same reports we all did.  Direct contact leader training numbers were very low.  I watched our district training team try - but it was like pushing rope.  So, national came up with the "solution" of online training.  I value live training, so I don't think I'd have made the same decision- but at least they tried something.

I still think the thing to address is changing the culture in the units to one where training is required by the Scoutmasters and Cubmasters.  Not sure how to do that though.

In the interim, the district folks need to focus on training quality.  Create the reputation that the trainings are events not to be missed and are far superior to the online versions.  

[Eagledad]

12 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

In the interim, the district folks need to focus on training quality.  Create the reputation that the trainings are events not to be missed and are far superior to the online versions.  

You really need to volunteer at the district level to understand what seems so simple. It's a life changing experience. Districts are manned by volunteers of all ages, experiences, and skills. Or lack there of.

If anything, Council needs to give more direction to the district training program. But even then, the council training committee is led by volunteers. And, while Council has the professionals to encourage quality of the process, Council level quality is subjective to Council Leadership philosophy.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just pointing out the challenge of the task. From my experience, if you believe in change at the higher level, you need to get proactive at the higher level.  If opportunity is calling, then maybe it's the right thing. 

Barry

[ParkMan]

44 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

You really need to volunteer at the district level to understand what seems so simple. It's a life changing experience. Districts are manned by volunteers of all ages, experiences, and skills. Or lack there of.

If anything, Council needs to give more direction to the district training program. But even then, the council training committee is led by volunteers. And, while Council has the professionals to encourage quality of the process, Council level quality is subjective to Council Leadership philosophy.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just pointing out the challenge of the task. From my experience, if you believe in change at the higher level, you need to get proactive at the higher level.  If opportunity is calling, then maybe it's the right thing. 

Barry

I do volunteer at the district level.  I know it's a very big challenge.  I'll admit to being fairly daunted by the enormity of the task.

It just seems like in topic after topic, we come back to there is a problem at the district/council level.  I agree - we won't make much headway if we don't try.