New girls in Scouting

[Eagle94-A1]

10 hours ago, shortridge said:

Aside from the AOL ceremony issue, what’s your evidence that this has happened?

Considering that none of the ceremonies at NOAC had  Arrowman in Native American regalia, and I believe the national chief and vice-chief didn't wear their bonnets either, would be one sign of things to come. The old men on the National OA committee are not listening to the youth. Heck if memory serves, of the 66 volunteer and professional members on the committee, only 3 members of the committee are youth: the National Chief, National Vice Chief, and one other. Event he region chiefs are not on the committee.

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

Can you share your data which says that girls are instinctively micro-oriented, etc.?

Do you want current data, or data from something I did a few years back? If it's current data, I am going to need a lot more time to do the research. If it is a paper I did in Grad School, give me some time to find it.

[Eagledad]

3 hours ago, shortridge said:

Can you share your data which says that girls are instinctively micro-oriented, etc.?

Nope, it’s not a new revelation. Data was acquired over years of life. 

Barry

[Eagledad]

11 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Goodness - this got negative today.  I'm sorry to see that we've gotten to the point where you all are so disillusioned.  Myself, I choose to keep looking for positives here. 

 

Lol, you must be a lawyer. As an engineer, I don’t see this as positive and negative, I see it as information to chart a course torward a goal. Or not. If the information proves the goal impossible, then either the goal must be changed or abandoned. 

If an adult is called a Boy Scout today because of his behavior, whether or not he was ever near a scout program, are they commenting on his camping skills or his social actions?

Will being called a scout 20 years from now be a complement?

What are your goals for the program?

Barry

[ParkMan]

27 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Lol, you must be a lawyer. As an engineer, I don’t see this as positive and negative, I see it as information to chart a course torward a goal. Or not. If the information proves the goal impossible, then either the goal must be changed or abandoned. 

If an adult is called a Boy Scout today because of his behavior, whether or not he was ever near a scout program, are they commenting on his camping skills or his social actions?

Will being called a scout 20 years from now be a complement?

What are your goals for the program?

Barry

Hah!  That's funny.  Actually I'm an engineer too. 

Perhaps because of that, I see Scouting from the BSA as both a set of goals and also a program for individuals to deliver.  In the work that I do as an engineer I'm constantly solving problems.  If one way doesn't work, I try another.  I look at Scouting much the same way.  I look at the goals and figure out what we're trying to accomplish in Scouting.  I look at the program provided by the BSA and figure out how best use it to accomplish those goals.  If the BSA changes the mechanics of the program and throws me a curve ball, I go back to the goals and I figure out how best to accomplish them.  

I think that's why I'm not so disillusioned by the recent changes - the fundamental goals really haven't changed.

• We now have girls - this is a fundamental change to the mechanics of the program, but the goals and program are still the same.  
• We have new YPT rules and changes to the OA.  These are significant changes to the mechanics of the program - not at the level of adding girls - but still significant.  These changes may make it harder to implement the program and goals, but it is certainly still possible to achieve them.
• We now have family Scouting - this is simply a marketing statement in an attempt to broaden the membership base.  It's neither a change to the program or it's mechanics.

In our troop, we look at the goals and program of the BSA and figure out how best to implement them.  When the BSA comes along and changes something - we note it, adjust, and move on.  But, we don't fundamentally change what we're trying to do.

My personal goals pretty well line up with the aims and methods of the BSA.  If I had to summarize, it would be something like: "strengthening the character, confidence, leadership skills, and self reliance of youth through the aims and methods of Scouting."

[Eagle94-A1]

40 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

• We now have family Scouting - this is simply a marketing statement in an attempt to broaden the membership base.  It's neither a change to the program or it's mechanics.

Sadly some see Family Camping as a change to the program. My troop is embracing the concept of every camp out is a family one, and it is slowly killing the program. And from what I am reading, this is not a local area thing either.

 

48 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

In our troop, we look at the goals and program of the BSA and figure out how best to implement them.  When the BSA comes along and changes something - we note it, adjust, and move on.  But, we don't fundamentally change what we're trying to do.

But sometimes BSA changes things that do indeed affect the program. While my troop is not as Patrol Method as I would like it to be, there are several in the area that are. One of them has the has the patrols doing day long activities without any adults present. Many of those involve service work with area non-profits, i.e. Knights of Columbus Tootsie Roll Campaign for Special Olympics and Salvation Army bell ringing come immediately to mind. Now that BSA has made a substantial change to its YP rules, I guess that A) the troop will no longer be participating in those activities since it doesn't have the adult manpower to supervise and B) a bunch of friends will be getting together now to perform that service work, so the BSA will get no recognition for their community service. Oh and I almost forgot, that troop will no longer be able to work with the Red Cross setting up, manning, and tearing down shelters since it's usually one over 21 adult and one of the 18-20 Scouters.

Not trying to be negative, and realize change is inevitable. But some changes BSA has made of late are slowly killing the program in my neck of the woods.

[ParkMan]

52 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Sadly some see Family Camping as a change to the program. My troop is embracing the concept of every camp out is a family one, and it is slowly killing the program. And from what I am reading, this is not a local area thing either.

 

But sometimes BSA changes things that do indeed affect the program. While my troop is not as Patrol Method as I would like it to be, there are several in the area that are. One of them has the has the patrols doing day long activities without any adults present. Many of those involve service work with area non-profits, i.e. Knights of Columbus Tootsie Roll Campaign for Special Olympics and Salvation Army bell ringing come immediately to mind. Now that BSA has made a substantial change to its YP rules, I guess that A) the troop will no longer be participating in those activities since it doesn't have the adult manpower to supervise and B) a bunch of friends will be getting together now to perform that service work, so the BSA will get no recognition for their community service. Oh and I almost forgot, that troop will no longer be able to work with the Red Cross setting up, manning, and tearing down shelters since it's usually one over 21 adult and one of the 18-20 Scouters.

Not trying to be negative, and realize change is inevitable. But some changes BSA has made of late are slowly killing the program in my neck of the woods.

Family Scouting is nothing more than a marketing concept designed to attract membership.  I've yet to see a single BSA guidebook or training updated to reflect any change in program or program mechanics.  No offense meant, but I'd argue that a troop that hears "Family Scouting" and then throws patrol method out the window is a troop that doesn't really understand what it is doing.  If a troop was correctly implementing the program, they'd figure out how to leverage Family Scouting in delivering the program - not change their program to fit Family Scouting.

Nothing in the new YPT rules is preventing these troops from continuing to do the service projects.  Yes, it means that these troops now have to line up two adults to be there.  It's a pain and a challenge sure.  But the BSA isn't preventing them from participating.

This is why I describe it as a curve ball.  A curve ball makes it harder.  A curve ball also hurts when you get hit by it.

Don't get me wrong - I have plenty of push back for the BSA on this.  1) our training program clearly needs work, 2) we're throwing too many mixed messages at units and not preparing them, and 3) we're creating rules that make it harder for units to operate.  The BSA is certainly not making it any easier to implement the Scouting program by doing stuff like this.  But, it also doesn't mean they've changed the goals or program and preventing us from deploying it.

This is why I continue to be positive and optimistic.  We're still delivering the same program we were 5 years ago based on the same aims and methods.

[shortridge]

7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Do you want current data, or data from something I did a few years back? If it's current data, I am going to need a lot more time to do the research. If it is a paper I did in Grad School, give me some time to find it.

Whatever actual data you have proving Barry’s claim would be great, thanks.

 

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Nope, it’s not a new revelation. Data was acquired over years of life. 

So you’re not talking about actual data, but anecdotal personal experience?

[Eagle94-A1]

38 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Family Scouting is nothing more than a marketing concept designed to attract membership.  I've yet to see a single BSA guidebook or training updated to reflect any change in program or program mechanics.  No offense meant, but I'd argue that a troop that hears "Family Scouting" and then throws patrol method out the window is a troop that doesn't really understand what it is doing.  If a troop was correctly implementing the program, they'd figure out how to leverage Family Scouting in delivering the program - not change their program to fit Family Scouting.

Oh I agree, the troop is not using the patrol method properly. As you can read from my older posts elsewhere, I've been fighting that  battle for several years. Troop is very much adult driven. Pack hasn't done a great job transitioning their Webelos to Boy Scouts, we now have a bunch of parents who see Boy Scouts as a continuation of Cub Scouts. And it's not just new parents either. SM and several ASMs see no problem with it, especially since they view national's push for Family Scouting as an endorsement of the continuation of Cubs.

26 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Whatever actual data you have proving Barry’s claim would be great, thanks.

Give me a bit.

 

 

 

[ParkMan]

 

34 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Oh I agree, the troop is not using the patrol method properly. As you can read from my older posts elsewhere, I've been fighting that  battle for several years. Troop is very much adult driven. Pack hasn't done a great job transitioning their Webelos to Boy Scouts, we now have a bunch of parents who see Boy Scouts as a continuation of Cub Scouts. And it's not just new parents either. SM and several ASMs see no problem with it, especially since they view national's push for Family Scouting as an endorsement of the continuation of Cubs.

I'd disagree slightly that national is pushing family scouting.  Other than this forum, I almost never hear about it.  But other than that - you and I agree here.  I'd love to help you on that - but don't know how from here.  What is it about youth led, patrol method they don't want to implement?

@JoeBob I'm curious what you disagree with here.

 

[RememberSchiff]

https://www.scouting.org/familyscouting/

 

[ParkMan]

8 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

https://www.scouting.org/familyscouting/

 

This forum has defined family Scouting as Dad, Mom, and siblings camping with the troop.  Where do they describe that?

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

So you’re not talking about actual data, but anecdotal personal experience?

Don’t be silly. Who saves articles, publications, records lectures and videos over the years just to save proofs for shortridges 30 or 40 years in the future? Then there are life experiences of our children, after school group activities, church youth groups, youth sports, and so on.

I of course don’t expect everyone to except my opinions and experiences, but I’m still expressing them. This is a forum.

Barry

[shortridge]

10 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Considering that none of the ceremonies at NOAC had  Arrowman in Native American regalia, and I believe the national chief and vice-chief didn't wear their bonnets either, would be one sign of things to come.

You said that the OA was “removing the Native American motif” and had “become just a service club,” past tense. I’m still seeing no evidence for that. 

Honestly, I’ve never been to NOAC, know very few people who have, and don’t see NOAC as representative of how the OA program is implemented at lodges around the country. Nor is regalia the driving element behind the broader themes and principles of the Order.

41 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Who saves articles, publications, records lectures and videos over the years just to save proofs for shortridges 30 or 40 years in the future? Then there are life experiences of our children, after school group activities, church youth groups, youth sports, and so on.

Can you point to even one study or data set that supports your belief?

[RememberSchiff]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

This forum has defined family Scouting as Dad, Mom, and siblings camping with the troop.  Where do they describe that?

The BSA has defined Family scouting as serving families. "Bringing the family together to experience Scouting was one of the key reasons the BSA chose to expand its programs to welcome girls." IMHO, many here are concerned  with this change of focus in this new program.  Family camping ,  minimizing patrol method, YP changes  are  by-products.

My $0.02

for quote

https://scoutingwire.org/how-cub-scouting-is-bringing-this-whole-family-together/

 

[Eagledad]

16 minutes ago, shortridge said:

 

Can you point to even one study or data set that supports your belief?

Sure. A family therapist visited our school system in 1992. Really good stuff.

Barry