Simply falling behind or is it more complicated?

[MattR]

23 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

Here are two I'll assert. 

You need to go back to school, fred. There are 3 bullet points.

To everyone else, all I can say is college was good for me, and I'm not even a girl.

I think it's fair to say that college is like a lot of things, you get out of it what you put into it. (Eagle, anyone?) A lot of students have always looked at school as something to put up with. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised to see that they don't get much out of it. Then there are the people that find something they really enjoy learning about and get a lot out of college. Doesn't it always get back to one's attitude? That said, some coaching about job expectations and debt loads, up front, would be a wise thing for students to hear.

To be honest, I never could stand scouts whose attitude about Eagle was just put up with it and get the piece of paper. I'm thinking I should change my approach. Some scouts have the right attitude and some don't. Kind of like college.

[cocomax]

I’m sure people who take polo lessons or sailing lessons earn a lot more on average too, Does that mean you should send your kids to sailing school?

Young people feel they must go to college because if they don't they are in trouble, they are told they doomed to a life of being poor if they do not go to college. Costs are outrageously high, but you pay them because you have to, and because the system makes it easy to borrow massive amounts of money. 

The nightmare begins when you can't get out of the debt. Since government lenders have pretty much unlimited power to collect on student debt they can grab everything from salary to income-tax returns. Running away is not an option.  Most young people find themselves unable to make their full payments when they just get out of school end up perpetually paying down interest only, never even touching the principal.

Is a high school diploma worthless trash now? Is a BA / BS the new minimum standard to get a job now?

Why does a student that goes to college for 3.5 years and never graduate earn about the same as a high school grad on average?

Why does a Harvard grad make 200% more income than grads of average collages? 

College is nothing more that High School 2.0, but with under age binge drinking. 

[fred johnson]

41 minutes ago, MattR said:

You need to go back to school, fred. There are 3 bullet points.

To everyone else, all I can say is college was good for me, and I'm not even a girl.

I think it's fair to say that college is like a lot of things, you get out of it what you put into it. (Eagle, anyone?) A lot of students have always looked at school as something to put up with. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised to see that they don't get much out of it. Then there are the people that find something they really enjoy learning about and get a lot out of college. Doesn't it always get back to one's attitude? That said, some coaching about job expectations and debt loads, up front, would be a wise thing for students to hear.

To be honest, I never could stand scouts whose attitude about Eagle was just put up with it and get the piece of paper. I'm thinking I should change my approach. Some scouts have the right attitude and some don't. Kind of like college.

Absolutely agree.  Even about two bullet points. 

Attitude is everything.  The challenge though is using representing college was as a long-term way to lift income subverts the attitude and original purpose.  Just like the Eagle rank.  Now, college value is over-inflated and over-priced.  Huge structures have been created around getting the college experience. 

For myself, my college experience was okay.  Some good courses.  Rarely were my eyes really enlightened.  But for myself, my high school education was outstanding and easily bachelor degree.  My math, physics, sciences, English and other studies were college level.  I had people challenging my writing and thoughts.  My high school text books were the same used in the state universities.  I even had tenth grade classes where I had to write a two page paper every day on the current discussion topic.  Both ideas and writing was graded. 

It was a public a public high school and it was outstanding.  I expected my college experience to be the next level up.  It wasn't.  If anything, I experienced far less growth ... except I had to do my own wash.  My opinion is we need to focus on making our primary grade learning experiences outstanding such that when people get their high school degree ... they can write and write well and they can think and think well.  

[RememberSchiff]

I agree with Peter Thiel 's statement in the posted video that reformation of college education will come from the outside. IMO, outside from education consumers, parents and students,  in high schools. 

My younger son is not attending high school, he is taking courses at a local community college - better teachers, better courses.  He has friends doing the same, other friends attending charter or private schools ,  others being home-schooled, and still others though physically in a public school are taking Virtual High School classes from Stanford or BYU.  

If grassroot's educational consumerism can prevail over the state DOE and teacher union, reformation of college education will follow. 

My $0.02,

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by RememberSchiff
clarity

[fred johnson]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

... Virtual High School classes from Stanford or BYU ....

I think there is huge opportunity here.  A virtual high school with a graduation diploma from an Ivory league school would have value.  I know I would have seriously considered this for my kids.  

[scoutldr]

I hear Ivory league is the way to go.  The kids come out squeaky clean....maybe even SCOTUS material.

[Horizon]

1 hour ago, fred johnson said:

I think there is huge opportunity here.  A virtual high school with a graduation diploma from an Ivory league school would have value.  I know I would have seriously considered this for my kids.  

You still need a validated certification methodology to prove actual attendance and more importantly comprehension. That is the biggest barrier to online education right now - testing and certification.

[Horizon]

cocomax - taking your post point by point:

 

I’m sure people who take polo lessons or sailing lessons earn a lot more on average too, Does that mean you should send your kids to sailing school?

- It depends. If you control for SES (Socio Economic Scale), will you find the same impact? College diploma holders do earn more over time, regardless of SES upon entry. 

Young people feel they must go to college because if they don't they are in trouble, they are told they doomed to a life of being poor if they do not go to college. Costs are outrageously high, but you pay them because you have to, and because the system makes it easy to borrow massive amounts of money. 

- College diplomas help with higher earnings. Other forms of skill development also help (I am a supporter of Mike Rowe's work in push trade skill development: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/). 

The nightmare begins when you can't get out of the debt. Since government lenders have pretty much unlimited power to collect on student debt they can grab everything from salary to income-tax returns. Running away is not an option.  Most young people find themselves unable to make their full payments when they just get out of school end up perpetually paying down interest only, never even touching the principal.

- I completely agree. Privatizing Sallie Mae (under Clinton), and ensuring that the debt cannot be erased in bankruptcy court (under Bush) had a huge impact on students. But that means that an informed student should look at more options.

- In California, going to community college for the first two years (and living at home) and then transferring to a Cal State or a UC school saves thousands of dollars. The state also encourages this path, as it saves them money (community college faculty make much less than Cal State, who make less than UC faculty).  

- There are also work study programs, plus the military (I paid for most of a top university thanks to Uncle Sam).

- Many top universities charge zero tuition for poorer families - Stanford announced a couple of years ago that no parents with an annual income and typical assets of less than $125,000 will have to pay a single cent toward tuition.

- Some universities are looking at a model where they take a percentage of future earnings instead of charging tuition: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-college-income-share-20180720-story.html

Applicants need to go shopping (hmmm - might make that a recommendation for my Personal Management Scouts when looking at a large family purchase). 

Is a high school diploma worthless trash now? Is a BA / BS the new minimum standard to get a job now?

- No, the lack of diploma is even worse for lifetime earnings. Census Bureau says that "33.4 percent of Americans 25 or older said they had completed a bachelor's degree or higher." So a college diploma puts a worker in that bucket.

Why does a student that goes to college for 3.5 years and never graduate earn about the same as a high school grad on average?

- Because they have not proven the ability to go all the way through. That makes it easy for the recruiting team to push their resume to the side when they have 150 go through.

Why does a Harvard grad make 200% more income than grads of average collages? 

- Because Harvard does the sifting first, saving employers the work. For example, many top Wall Street firms and consulting shops will ONLY do on-campus recruiting at the Ivy League schools. Those are the firms that pay the most, hence the higher wages.

College is nothing more that High School 2.0, but with under age binge drinking. 

- I am sure there are some colleges that fit that model, much like some Troops run a Webelos III program. I personally would avoid any of the for-profit schools that regularly have accreditation issues. However, painting all with that broad brush does them a disservice, and to put it bluntly - is factually wrong.

[FireStone]

College is meaningless if you go just for the sake of getting a degree.

What I don't get is the mentality that college is just about the degree. Every high school kid gets it drilled into them that if they want to get into a good college they need to do more than just show up in class throughout high school. And yet when they get to college, all they do is show up for class and work towards graduation, and then wonder why they end up feeling like it was a waste. 

I don't think college is a waste of time or money, as long as you go there intent on doing something to better yourself and grow from the experience, in addition to getting that degree. My college had mandatory community service project time required of every freshman (I worked for Habitat for Humanity). I learned the most valuable lessons throughout my college experience outside of the classroom. And I grew as a person more than I think I would have without the college experience. 

Lots of so-called "experts" today want to quantify the value of a college education, put a number to it and figure out if it pays off. But their only determining factor in that seems to be the question of whether you get a job in your chosen field after college and how much that job pays. 

My profession (art director, graphic design) doesn't require a degree. In many job interviews I've been on, college never even came up. It's all about your portfolio, showing what you can do, not what school name is printed on your diploma. But who I am, the person I became after those years away from home and in college, the connections I made and the path my life took afterward, that was all heavily driven by just being in college, going through that experience and growing from it. 

Somehow this particular discussion about the value of college often comes down to putting the blame on the schools, that they don't prepare kids for jobs, they are somehow failing their students. I don't agree with that. College is an opportunity. It's up to every college student to decide what to do with that opportunity, and just like every other educational step in the lives of students before college, nothing is guaranteed at the end just because you showed up. This belief that colleges are failing students is entirely turned around. It's the students failing themselves, or maybe the parents failing their kids, if those students go to college thinking they're entitled to (or guaranteed) something at the end of it just because they showed up to class and passed the tests, or that the benchmark for a worthwhile college experience only goes as far as some perceived dollar value of that degree. 

[Eagle1993]

The defunding and loss of vocational education in high school and trade schools is a shame.  If there is one area I think Boys have been short changed it is in the loss of voc ed.  Yes, college is great for some but not all. If your talent and interest is in the trades you can live a great and successful life.   Unfortunately too many schools have dropped this and seem to think any college is better than other path.

I’m not a huge fan of online schools for most students.  Most of the people I hire or work with use very little specific knowledge they acquired in college.  What they have to do is creative problem solving in complex teams.   I have a hard time seeing online universities providing that skill development.  There may be some that are starting to find a way... I just haven’t seen it yet. 

[thrifty]

Don't know anything about boys vs girls. 

My son's school system pushes students to attend college, not just encourages, but emphasizes college as the goal.  My wife and I have several degrees but feel college is not for everyone.  The recent highschool graduates of our extended family have gone on to college because that's what they were told they needed to do.  Both dropped out the first year after getting sizeable loans.  Now both are pursuing law enforcement and possibly EMT.  Those seem like skills better suited to them.  My son's school had a job fair and not a single trade was there.  It was all IT and medical based with the local FD and PD mixed in.  How do you not have a trade at a large job fair?  They weren't invited.  I asked some of my teacher friends and they said something about the school being ranked/graded on the number of future college students it has.  Students that would be best served by exploring options other than college don't get what they need.

There is a very scary future on the way.  Our school system has implemented a program that goes by several names Summit, Basecamp, individualized learning platform.  Its experimental and in more and more school systems.  When you follow the paper trail, you find that this program is sponsored by Gates and Zuckerberg money.  The school got everything for free so of course they agreed to it.  The students spend much of their time on the computers and are encouraged to use Youtube, Facebook and Instagram.  There are a lot of crazy things about this program that I could go on and on about. We have a small school and there are a lot of parents unhappy with the direction our students are going. 

The wife and I both went to trade schools our last two years of highschool.  I never thought I would have a chance to go to college and she thought she'd be a secretary.  We agree that we learned more at the trade school and in our first professional jobs than we did in college 20 years ago.  I don't know what they are like now but when we were in college, our classes were stagnant and mostly boring with no real world application of what we were learning.  We still have our text books and I've flipped through them for a laugh.  The only good reason for us to have been in college was to get the piece of paper that says we have a degree so we could get our foot in the door and prove ourselves.  Its obviously not that way for everyone.

[qwazse]

FWIW, on the bus ride home I noticed:

1. The union hall had a sign up for roofers needed (will train) starting at $31/hour.

2. A girl in a BSA uniform was walking down the sidewalk carrying a WVU backpack.

[Eagle1993]

I believe this started to change in the!late 1980s.  My father taught voc ed from early 1970s through 2000s.  In the 1970s and early 1980s kids that went into voc we were interested in the trades as a career.  The were good kids that worked hard.  Then many schools decided that voc ed was a great location to put kids that misbehave.  My father who became a director of a voc ed school was already having trouble hiring good teachers as most could make more doing their profession.  Then the classes started filling up with BD kids.  My dad complained and the response from the school was that they didn’t want these kids disrupting “normal” classes.  

The lack of respect of non college paths is an issue in our school system.  No one is saying graduate HS with no further training, but the school system should recognize there are more paths than just college and show respect to all paths.   

[walk in the woods]

It's 40 or 50 years of change coming home to roost.  My Guidance Counselor in HS told me I was going to ruin my life by joining the Navy (this was in 1980).  She was convinced.  After I got out I worked for a year, took every test possible to get out of gen ed classes, then went to get my degree in computer science.  The gen ed classes I had to take were a joke.  People who had never lived life outside the academy educating/preparing me for life.  Graduated in just under 3 years and never looked back.  Went to work for a power company, my degree checked a box, my experience operating reactors got me the job.  My friends who got out and went to work as operators still out earn me.

[qwazse]

21 hours ago, cocomax said:

I’m sure people who take polo lessons or sailing lessons earn a lot more on average too, Does that mean you should send your kids to sailing school? ...

LoL! One of our Eagle scouts completed Merchant Marine academy and got his captain's license. Not sure about income, but he's driving some pretty big toys along some very scenic waterways. The path there led through theater. So I agree that trades should not be neglected, but ...

21 hours ago, cocomax said:

... Why does a Harvard grad make 200% more income than grads of average collages? ...

I'm not Ivy league in the least. But in general their syllabi for comparable classes cover far more than material. Plus, connections ...

21 hours ago, cocomax said:

... College is nothing more that High School 2.0, but with under age binge drinking. 

I'm sorry, but no High School or trade school in the US would let me splice genes, frequency modulate synthesizers, read the language of my grandparents, and bring a computer system crashing to its knees (unintended hazard of iterative processing).

The wife, the kids, and I went through stone cold sober. But, yes, alcohol dependence is a serious issue ... with higher prevalence among college students. It makes for great drama. But most students would resent their time in school being characterized as such.