Simply falling behind or is it more complicated?

[WisconsinMomma]

Sometimes the female candidates are the most qualified.  Take a look at CEO Jayshree Ullal of Arista Networks, for example.  Also note she was not educated in the US.  Indira Nooyi, at Pepsi, similar background. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by WisconsinMomma

[RememberSchiff]

I  am amused, tinkled pink actually, at all the young ,  talented makers and entrepreneurs who are saying no to Apple, Google,  Amazon, Wall Street, ... job offers and starting their own companies.  Quite different from back in the day, when we were trained to be employees of GM,  IBM, GE, Wall Street...

My $0.02

Edited September 19, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[SSF]

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Why? Her name is Christine and nickname Chris.  It's her name, she can use it the way she wants to. What if someone is named Robin or Morgan or Andi? Is that deceptive?  

The issue is not having an ambiguous name, e.g....Erin, Terry, Pat, etc.

The issue is that Christine enjoyed the surprise and embarrassment that men expressed after realizing that she was a she, and not a he. 

The only reason I know about this is because she made it a point to brag about it.

[SSF]

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Sometimes the female candidates are the most qualified.  Take a look at CEO Jayshree Ullal of Arista Networks, for example.  Also note she was not educated in the US.  Indira Nooyi, at Pepsi, similar background. 

How do you know for sure that either of these two women were the most qualified candidates for their jobs?

Do you know who else may have been considered? 

Do you know what accomplishments and experience the other candidates, who were not chosen, may have had?

Would be interesting to find out how many men and how many women were considered for these prominent positions.

I agree fully that, sometimes, a woman may be the best candidate for any given position. I have no doubt that there are cases when a woman is the most qualified person for a job.

However, the point I'm making is that in this day and age, many companies have begun virtue signaling by choosing to hire or promote the most qualified female candidate, as opposed to the most qualified candidate (who might just happen be male).

[WisconsinMomma]

SSF, their performance as CEOs of public companies has been stellar. I don't think you'll find much argument with the results. 

You can also look at CEO Katrina Lake of Stitch Fix. She founded the company, no one had to hire her!   But at Harvard Business School, her idea was flogged as unworkable, and the venture capitalists mostly rejected her company.  This ultimately made her build company stronger in the face of those challenges. She has some very talented men working with her, and she has stopped working with a board member that made her uncomfortable.  Good for her! 

Edited September 19, 2018 by WisconsinMomma

[cocomax]

A whole lot of women are in big trouble, 1 out to 5 are taking psychotropic medication for metal disorders (twice the rate that young men do)  Many women are graduating from colleges with worthless degrees with no hope of finding a job and an insane amount of college loan debt that they must pay back.

Too many times a college degree is a curse and not a blessing.

I know a woman who was a theatre major, when she could not find a job, so she went back to school. She ended up with a Ph.D. in Theatre and over $600,000 in student loan debt, she is currently teaching high school theater in the San Francisco area part time and making under $30,000 a year and does not have a place of her own to live at, she is so depressed, she hates her life. She feels like she has destroyed her life with debt she can never repay. 

Young people need to be told just how life wrecking ending up with a degree that will not get you a job and an mountain of school debt is. They need to be very sure that if they go to college the degree is worth the money they will spend on it.  There are too many people misleading young people with lies like:  

                             GIRLS CAN DO ANYTHING! FOLLOW YOUR HEART AND THE MONEY WILL FOLLOW!!!! 

     Everyone has limits and should learn what they are, I learned many of my limits in scouting.  I learned the important lesson that if I mess up, I can fail and bad things happen.  Some kids are so protected from any failure by lawn mower parents that they are delusional that they can do anything and it will work out fine, they feel like they can never fail and there is nothing to worry about.

     Girls and boys should think very carefully and make good decisions that will not destroy their life before they really get started.

They need to pick a life path that is right for themselves, that they can develop the skills to be successful at and make a living doing.  They should resist the pressure to become something that they do not have the skills or desire to do.  

Many young people are being smart by avoiding the pitfall that college can be. 

College is fast becoming an outdated thing anyway.  I can freely study any subject I wish pretty much free of charge on the internet and reach leaves of knowledge far beyond what colleges offer.   Once a person learns how to learn on their own, college is pretty meaningless, in fact it is a waste of time and money.

Many young people are starting their own successful businesses and avoiding college all together and doing very well. 

   One thing every young person need to learn is:  BE PREPARED!

   . . . .  if you mess up on the college thing, you might not be prepared for what comes next. . . .

   if you do the college thing right you might end up with a useful degree that will prepare you for what comes next. . . 

 

    

       

[qwazse]

30 minutes ago, cocomax said:

A whole lot of women are in big trouble, 1 out to 5 are taking psychotropic medication for metal disorders (twice the rate that young men do)  Many women are graduating from colleges with worthless degrees with no hope of finding a job and an insane amount of college loan debt that they must pay back.

...

Young people need to be told just how life wrecking ending up with a degree that will not get you a job and an mountain of school debt is. They need to be very sure that if they go to college the degree is worth the money they will spend on it.  There are too many people misleading young people with lies like:  

                             GIRLS CAN DO ANYTHING! FOLLOW YOUR HEART AND THE MONEY WILL FOLLOW!!!! 

     Everyone has limits and should learn what they are, I learned many of my limits in scouting.  ...

    

That's a strong case for a program that doesn't let girls think they've "arrived" until they earn some type of personal management badge. Hmmmm ..... 

Seriously. Because she ditched GS/USA, and this isn't part of the venturing curriculum, Daughter had to be brought up to speed. Fortunately, Son #1 was willing to help with the training. He'd not only earned the badge, but had been through my "Need $? Submit budget." school of hard knocks.

[Horizon]

So much bad information in this thread.

Yes, a few companies will hire without a college degree. Mine included. However, lifetime earnings are better for college degrees vs stopping with a high school diploma.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/collegepayoff-complete.pdf

"A 2002 Census Bureau study estimated that in 1999, the average lifetime earnings of a Bachelor’s degree holder was $2.7 million (2009 dollars), 75 percent more than that earned by high school graduates in 1999. Today, we find similar numbers — but since 1999, the premium on college education has grown to 84 percent. In other words, over a lifetime, a Bachelor’s degree is worth $2.8 million on average."

Next, the reason to value diversity in employment (once again, my company included) is far more than "virtue signalling." Our customers come from many genders and races, so it is good to have employees be varied as well. This ensures that we put our best foot forward in any situation. Different perspectives helps break you out of mental traps.

Third for cocomax: Racking up $600k in debt for a PhD? Did your friend not have a fellowship? I know many PhDs, and the only debt they have is from their bachelors degree and for some housing costs during the PhD process. The rest was covered by their program. A hint - quality PhD programs pay for the tuition, and provide a stipend covered by being a TA in classes.

Online and self studying is great - but employers want to see certificates, degrees, experience, or some other proof of ability to complete. Now, you can instead just use screening test and do all training on the job: https://www.afr.com/leadership/cognitive-testing-for-everyone--its-democratic-and-its-thorough-20180521-h10cnt

But most firms need a way to screen. When online submissions allows for massive numbers of resumes, recruiters need a screen. Bachelors degree or higher is a great place to start.

As for worthless degrees - that is like worthless merit badges. Everything is an opportunity to learn to think, reason, and learn. Later you can apply to whatever trade you desire. When I was in management consulting, I hired psychology undergrads instead of business ones. The psych students knew stats and could write, while the business ones thought that they knew too much. I have a art degree graduate who is a top business consultant doing work for me as well. Theater major? I'll hire one to run events for me, or work on sales skills and presentations.

[cocomax]

People will tell you college is an experience that inspires you to strive for more, to be your best. But in reality, it creates a workforce of mindless drones, set to take orders from the corporate hierarchy. It does not create the Steve Jobs of the world.

College is not for people that have problems with authority, who believe their way is the best way. But also readily look for mentors and others to help them grow as a person. For those who seek out problems to solve and have an unquenchable thirst to continually learn about the world around them. And most importantly, for those who know they were put on this planet to serve the greater good. That their purpose is to help others more than they help themselves.

[Horizon]

1 hour ago, cocomax said:

People will tell you college is an experience that inspires you to strive for more, to be your best. But in reality, it creates a workforce of mindless drones, set to take orders from the corporate hierarchy. It does not create the Steve Jobs of the world.

Hmm, ... Marc Benioff (CEO of Salesforce), degree from USC. Peter Thiel (PayPal, etc.), degree from Stanford. Elon Musk (Tesla), degree from U Penn. Jobs and Gates are outliers, not a model to follow. 

Colleges and Universities do not create mindless drones. Teaching that to kids means that those kids, statistically, will have a lower lifetime pay than their peers. Now, if they prefer the trades (and listen to Mike Rowe), they might have a more fulfilling life. However, they also might end up in a mindless drone job on an assembly line.

 

[cocomax]

Elon Musk, knows college is generally bad, he knows, he has a degree.

I went to college for 3 years and learned how bad it was first hand.

Here is what Elon thinks. . . 

 

[cocomax]

Peter Thiel thinks college is a scam.

 

 

[Horizon]

Yup, but they already both have their degrees. Pete even has a JD to go with his bachelors (in philosophy).

Now Pete will pay you to drop out of school and join his incubator (if you are good enough), but his portfolio company Palantir also has job postings labeled "new grad."

Go over to Musk's Tesla, and you will find this line on some of the job postings "Bachelor’s degree or equivalent experience; post-graduate or professional degrees a plus."

 

[fred johnson]

Wow.  Lots of strong opinions here.  This is a fascinating complex topic.  Here are two I'll assert.  

• Boys have far more bad experiences in the primary grades.  It starts out in the earliest grades often being behind their female peers.  I think this causes a bad experience with "school".  Not learning, but "school".
• Boys see all the academic programs to help girls.  If the boy is struggling, it compounds their guilt that they could not succeed with all the advantages they already have as a "boy".   I think this causes more boys to think they are not suited for college.  
• Current college loan programs distort the value of college.  Student loans should be dischargable if you the education won't raise you to earn more money.  We should not distinguish between bad degrees or degrees in fields where there are no jobs or no jobs that pay.  It's fine to offer degrees in specialty topics, but don't indenture people tens of thousands for degrees that earn less than a barista.  

[qwazse]

Seems like we've just worked through the embattled erstwhile privelaged class (EEPC) argument in a nutshell:

• Thesis: This EEPC is being marginalized.
• Counter: Show stats.
• Argument: See,
  • The ratio of EEPC:non-EEPC with X is declining, so much so
  • More non-EEPC than EEPC are getting X
  • Soon EEPC will have no access to X and will be crushed like worms on the pavement.
• Counter: But in terms of odds of success:
  • That ratio is: 9:10, not exactly the definition of "crushed under foot."
  • More EEPC are getting X than ever before.
  • Members of EEPC who apply for X get it as readily as non-EEPC members.
  • Aggressively recruiting non-EEPC to X has also enabled EEPC to get X as well.
• Rejoinder: Well, X isn't that valuable anymore. Look at all of the EEPC who've done fine without it.

So, there's an attack on EEPC that can be demonstrated by their now increased access to some meaningless X of which non-EEPC are getting even more?