Simply falling behind or is it more complicated?

[WisconsinMomma]

20 hours ago, gblotter said:

So now that boys are the segment of society that is falling behind, how bad must it get before we get some recognition of their unique needs? How far ahead must girls be before boys become deserving of specialized attention and tailored programs?

This is complicated.  On the one hand, if I look at one schools National Honor Society members, there are a whole lot of girls and not many boys.

On the other hand, when I look at CEOs of tech companies, or employees in a finance-related business I work with, there are a whole lot of men in the prime roles and not many women.  I think it's great that some women are participating at the highest levels.  Not all women want to get there, but it's still a harder road for women to get there than men. 

Randi Zuckerberg (Mark Zuckerberg's sister and the person who came up with the idea for Facebook Live) said in an interview that something you can do to help your daughter is to give her a boyish name -- people would agree to meetings with "Randy"  but then be continually surprised when a female showed up. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by WisconsinMomma

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

This is complicated.  On the one hand, if I look at one schools National Honor Society members, there are a whole lot of girls and not many boys.

.... 

I've noticed that our boy scouts, starting with Son #2, have been ambivalent towards NHS. The boys don't think they need it as much as girls think they do.

As a family, we certainly didn't think NHS contributed to anybody's career goals. Again, with the average male college applicant more likely to be accepted into a college than ever before, the general need for high school honor societies has diminished.

Son #2 was making high marks, was mentoring youth in church, and was a Life Scout. He figured that was all he needed.

[WisconsinMomma]

with the average male college applicant more likely to be accepted into a college than ever before,

Really? I was under the impression that colleges are becoming more female-heavy and that admissions are becoming more and more competitive.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/

It's hard to say, are boys rejecting college or are colleges rejecting boys?  I don't know, I worried it was the latter.  There is a push towards the trades and I wonder if more boys than girls are getting pushed toward the trades...

Edited September 19, 2018 by WisconsinMomma

[malraux]

Theres a difference between the male female ratio changing and the rate of men going to college changing.  If suddenly lots of women start going to college while the same percentage of men go to college, the m/f ratio will change while nothing has changed for the men. 

[cocomax]

More and more men do not want to go to college, they see it as a waste of time and not worth the cost.

Women keep going because it is drilled into them they MUST GO TO COLLEGE!!!

More and more businesses see most degrees as mostly worthless and now looking for people with ability and not a piece of paper that says they are smart.

I found out in 1987 that college was a waste of time, when my UCSC Computer Engineering program was de-accredited at the beginning of my 3rd year and the most complex thing they ever "taught" me was Ohm's law, something I mastered in 3rd grade. 

And things have gotten much worse, collages are dropping programming languages like JAVA, Python, C++, C# and instead embracing the Scratch programming language. . . which is a fine language for 4th through 8th graders,  but is beyond silly as a college level language.

There are College Electrical Engineering students using snap circuit kits and Lego mind storms in their classes.

I have meet electrical engineering graduates that did not know what a "white sheet" was or how to read it and they did not even understand simple things like voltage regulation. 

A PHD College professor and dear friend,  who taught advanced medicine a few years back, told me she was frightened by the lack of reasoning skills her students displayed. Almost none of them had the skills needed to think like a doctor. All they could really do is input data into a computer and do what the computer told them to do without questioning or thinking or knowing why.

I spent a whole day teaching a grade school science teacher with a masters in education what all those weird science toys in her 6th grade science class room did and what the basic science behind them was and how to use them to teach lessons to kids. . .  it is a weird world where a old boy scout / lumber jack spends the day showing a science teacher with a masters degree how to "science" and how to make it fun.  (That was my good turn for the day, I did it free of charge.)

Colleges are happy to dumb classes down to welcome in more students to rake in more money.   

[SSF]

4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

This is complicated.  On the one hand, if I look at one schools National Honor Society members, there are a whole lot of girls and not many boys.

On the other hand, when I look at CEOs of tech companies, or employees in a finance-related business I work with, there are a whole lot of men in the prime roles and not many women.  I think it's great that some women are participating at the highest levels.  Not all women want to get there, but it's still a harder road for women to get there than men. 

Randi Zuckerberg (Mark Zuckerberg's sister and the person who came up with the idea for Facebook Live) said in an interview that something you can do to help your daughter is to give her a boyish name -- people would agree to meetings with "Randy"  but then be continually surprised when a female showed up. 

I had a female colleague once who's full name was Christine, but who otherwise always went by Chris (including her e-mail address). She actually said that she did get a kick out of the surprise men got when they finally ended up talking to her on the phone (after previously only having sent e-mails) and then realizing that they had been communicating with a woman, not a man. 

I personally always thought that was very juvenile, and deceptiive, on her part.

[Eagledad]

44 minutes ago, cocomax said:

 

Colleges are happy to dumb classes down to welcome in more students to rake in more money.   

[SSF]

4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

On the other hand, when I look at CEOs of tech companies, or employees in a finance-related business I work with, there are a whole lot of men in the prime roles and not many women.  I think it's great that some women are participating at the highest levels.  Not all women want to get there, but it's still a harder road for women to get there than men. 

I would argue that this trend is definitely changing within both tech and the finance industries. On the flip side though, some professions are heavily dominated by women - media and public relations being two.

in the wake of the 'women earn 77 cents on the dollar,' (a figure that's been highly contested and disproven) a lot of companies in tech and in other industries are trying to virtue signal by highlighting and publicizing their commitment to advancing opportunities for women at the executive levels; i.e. it's not a question of hiring or promoting the most qualified candidate, but hiring or promoting the most qualified female candidate.

[cocomax]

We would be a lot better off is we based hiring people and college admissions on merit and merit alone. 

[Sentinel947]

14 minutes ago, SSF said:

I would argue that this trend is definitely changing within both tech and the finance industries. On the flip side though, some professions are heavily dominated by women - media and public relations being two.

Nursing and HR as well. I've always worked on Female majority HR departments since I graduated from College. Most of my supervisors have been female. Not necessarily good or bad, just is what it is. 

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

with the average male college applicant more likely to be accepted into a college than ever before,

Really? I was under the impression that colleges are becoming more female-heavy and that admissions are becoming more and more competitive.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/

It's hard to say, are boys rejecting college or are colleges rejecting boys?  I don't know, I worried it was the latter.  There is a push towards the trades and I wonder if more boys than girls are getting pushed toward the trades...

@WisconsinMomma, you have been lied to.

College (2 and 4 year program) acceptance rates are up to 70%. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cpa.asp

Actual undergraduate enrollment in degree-granting programs https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cha.asp

Quote

In fall 2016, female students made up 56 percent of total undergraduate enrollment (9.5 million students), and male students made up 44 percent (7.4 million students). Between 2000 and 2016, enrollment for both groups showed similar patterns of change: both female and male enrollment increased between 2000 and 2010 (by 39 percent and 36 percent, respectively) and then decreased between 2010 and 2016 (by 8 percent and 5 percent, respectively). Between 2016 and 2027, female enrollment is projected to increase by 4 percent (from 9.5 million to 9.8 million students), and male enrollment is projected to increase by 2 percent (from 7.4 million to 7.6 million students).

In other words, that male:female ratio has been pretty static for some time, with about a 5 point gap when percentage of population is considered.

As @cocomax expressed, young men are seeing less return on investment in college and will not enroll straight out of high school, causing this gap to widen. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_303.80.asp?current=yes. But that will only increase the call for male students to enroll in colleges. For example, to remain competitive, the two all-female colleges along Pittsburgh's academic corridor started calling themselves universities and enrolling men.

[Treflienne]

1 hour ago, SSF said:

I personally always thought that was very juvenile, and deceptiive, on her part.

She may simply be trying to sidestep the phenomenon in which women (in some areas/fields) are not assumed to be competent until they have demonstrated that they are.  Do I guess correctly that she works in a male-majority field?  (If she were in a heavily female profession, such as elementary school teaching, people would not assume that "Chris" was a man.)

Edited September 19, 2018 by Treflienne
I should have said "not taken seriously until they have demonstrated that they are competent."

[WisconsinMomma]

1 hour ago, SSF said:

 I personally always thought that was very juvenile, and deceptiive, on her part.

1

Why? Her name is Christine and nickname Chris.  It's her name, she can use it the way she wants to. What if someone is named Robin or Morgan or Andi? Is that deceptive?  

[WisconsinMomma]

2 hours ago, cocomax said:

 

Colleges are happy to dumb classes down to welcome in more students to rake in more money.   

 

Easy money for student loans has definitely not helped.  

[WisconsinMomma]

1 hour ago, SSF said:

I would argue that this trend is definitely changing within both tech and the finance industries. On the flip side though, some professions are heavily dominated by women - media and public relations being two.

in the wake of the 'women earn 77 cents on the dollar,' (a figure that's been highly contested and disproven) a lot of companies in tech and in other industries are trying to virtue signal by highlighting and publicizing their commitment to advancing opportunities for women at the executive levels; i.e. it's not a question of hiring or promoting the most qualified candidate, but hiring or promoting the most qualified female candidate.

People are more interested in promoting women, but how many of them are tokens? I agree that the wage gap is mostly because of parenting choices, which is perfectly fine.  

Media and PR have a lot of women but look at the top, how many women at the top?  Look at MeToo and see how many men are at the top of big media and er, taking advantage of it.   Same thing with medicine, look at the top  -- it's maybe more even but not woman dominated -- there are definitely more opportunities for women in industries that have a lot of female employees.  It's easy to be the female owner of a housekeeping company but that's not what I'm talking about. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by WisconsinMomma