Eagledad Posted September 20, 2018 Author Share Posted September 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said: I don't think there was any way the BSA could have "stayed away" from this issue. It was not like National woke up one day and decided it wanted to let "trans males" join the Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. (It never would have been an issue with Venturing anyway.) A boy (using his preferred identification) wanted to join the Cub Scouts, with the approval of his mother. Based on then-existing policy they were told he can't join because his birth certificate says he is female. Mom filed a complaint with the New Jersey (it's always New Jersey) Division on Civil Rights, they decided to go after the BSA, and the BSA had to decide whether it wanted to get involved in litigation (again). They decided not to, and they changed the policy, which (unlike the policy on gay youth) has a local option. I don't think they did a lot of studying into the concerns you mention. Basically the policy is that if the parents sign an application saying their child is a boy, he will be admitted as a boy. And now, with the additional changes in membership policy, the "trans" issue becomes an issue of den or troop placement rather than a real "membership" issue. Sadly, we live in a pop political culture where speech is very limited today. You even see it some in this forum. Not submitting to the trend would have likely been suicide for the BSA. But, someone has to point out the risks and I feel the it should have been the BSA. Still, as you said, I don't think National gave it a 2nd thought. It's on the volunteers now. It will likely be an issue on both sides. Anyone who hasn't experienced a call by the lawyer of a parent hasn't felt the full brunt of intimidation yet. Even worse, many folks feel the parents shouldn't even be involved. I don't even understand that. Family used to be everything. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Eagledad said: I'm a little unclear, the reason I say the BSA should stay out is because they are not experts and don't any authority. While the parents were working with their child in therapy, how should the compassionate scout leaders work with the scout? What if the scout leader's compassionate mentoring is contrary to the therapy? Or is therapy crap also. By BSA banning these youth they were not staying out of the situation. They were telling the youth that they are wrong or immoral or some combination of the two. Sorrry, this is not a situation any youth organization is ever on the sideline. I do agree it is complex but ignoring it by banning youth did send a simple message to a complex issue and it wasn’t staying out of it. As far as how to work with the youth... ask the parents. Youth leaders are faced with a variety of complexities youth face... this is just another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 (edited) On 9/20/2018 at 4:58 PM, Eagledad said: Sadly, we live in a pop political culture where speech is very limited today. You even see it some in this forum.... I am not sure what freedom of speech has to do with this. And I disagree with your premise anyway. Except for specific places like college campuses where the "safe space" movement has gone too far, speech is pretty free in this country. And in this forum. Quote It's on the volunteers now. It will likely be an issue on both sides. It is on the volunteers who choose to be involved. The BSA has made clear that a trans yonuth will be placed in a unit that will welcome them. When the BSA changed the policy, the 8 year old trans boy who had been rejected by his "home" pack was welcomed by a pack in a different town. Quote Anyone who hasn't experienced a call by the lawyer of a parent hasn't felt the full brunt of intimidation yet. You're talking to the wrong guy. Edited September 21, 2018 by NJCubScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 NJ, I think my students might take issue with your 'safe space' on campus concept....at least after the test I gave last week, lol. But as far as "Its' always New Jersey", nothing would be more refreshing than for some Southern state to take that lead in the progressive movement. But alas.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vol_scouter Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 A little late to this discussion but a couple of points. First, there was not a policy change by the BSA because there had never been a policy. So this established a policy where there had been none. Next, the parents have always determined the gender on the membership form for the BSA. We as volunteers or professionals have never done physical exams to make a determination and accepted the parents word on filing out the application. Another point is that many states allow the parents to determine the gender of their child and they can change the gender whenever they wish. So the legal determination in some states is whatever the parents. Those same states have anti-discrimination laws that would result in multiple lawsuits that the BSA would most likely lose and would certainly be very expensive. The BSA did the only reasonable thing, establish a policy that does not violate state laws and keeps with current standards whereby the parents determine the gender on the membership form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted September 27, 2018 Author Share Posted September 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, vol_scouter said: The BSA did the only reasonable thing, establish a policy that does not violate state laws and keeps with current standards whereby the parents determine the gender on the membership form. Yes, yes, all very practical, but is it moral? We will find out with this next generation of adults. Communities are supposed to stop kids from jumping off cliffs, not encourage just let them go. But I understand the pop culture power of persuasion. Or is that power of intimidation? Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, Eagledad said: Yes, yes, all very practical, but is it moral? Whose morals? Since we are a religious, but non-denominational organization, whose morals would we dictate to our units? Seems like something best left to the CO and not to BSA National. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted September 27, 2018 Author Share Posted September 27, 2018 11 minutes ago, Hawkwin said: Whose morals? Since we are a religious, but non-denominational organization, whose morals would we dictate to our units? Even atheist say they are moral. I'm talking about contributing to possible child abuse, so where does that fit in to your question? Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 47 minutes ago, Eagledad said: Even atheist say they are moral. I'm talking about contributing to possible child abuse, so where does that fit in to your question? Barry What is the child abuse? Clearly each state has laws covering such. Does your state consider such actions child abuse? Are you suggesting that BSA create its own rules and definitions regarding child abuse that extend beyond what each state already does? Again, whose morals would establish those extra-judicial rules? Not only that, how expensive would it be to not only create those rules but then defend them against legal challenges. Are you willing to pay another $50 a year to cover those new legal fees? Again, if a CO doesn't like something about an applicant, let that CO deal with it at their level. It seems foolish beyond even worthy consideration to ask BSA to adopt a national policy that would define child abuse more extreme than what each state does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted September 27, 2018 Author Share Posted September 27, 2018 1 minute ago, Hawkwin said: What is the child abuse? Clearly each state has laws covering such. Does your state consider such actions child abuse? Are you suggesting that BSA create its own rules and definitions regarding child abuse that extend beyond what each state already does? Again, whose morals would establish those extra-judicial rules? Not only that, how expensive would it be to not only create those rules but then defend them against legal challenges. Are you willing to pay another $50 a year to cover those new legal fees? Again, if a CO doesn't like something about an applicant, let that CO deal with it at their level. It seems foolish beyond even worthy consideration to ask BSA to adopt a national policy that would define child abuse more extreme than what each state does. Ah! Government morality as the humanistic guideline. I'm not sure even atheist would agree. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 1 minute ago, Eagledad said: Ah! Government morality as the humanistic guideline. I'm not sure even atheist would agree. But exactly what is the moral guideline at work here? What does it say? From where does it originate? What is their authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted September 27, 2018 Author Share Posted September 27, 2018 1 minute ago, NJCubScouter said: But exactly what is the moral guideline at work here? What does it say? From where does it originate? What is their authority? Do no harm. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 4 hours ago, Eagledad said: Do no harm. I suspect it will not come as a big surprise that I don't think you have answered my question. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwilkins Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Eagledad said: Government morality Non-sequitur of the week award goes to Eagledad. Congratulations! Edited September 28, 2018 by ianwilkins 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 6 hours ago, ianwilkins said: Non-sequitur of the week award goes to Eagledad. Congratulations! Technically: oxymoron. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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