Oct 1, 2018 - GSS ends Patrol Method?

[gblotter]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

It appears as if the Patrol Method will truly die on October 1st, 2018 in the US.

What is happening on October 1st, 2018? (I obviously missed something in this thread)

[ParkMan]

Just now, gblotter said:

What is happening on October 1st, 2018? (I obviously missed something in this thread)

That's when the new G2SS rule that requires adults at all activities kick in.

[gblotter]

15 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

That's when the new G2SS rule that requires adults at all activities kick in.

Ah - gotcha. I took the new YPT training when it first came out, but I guess I didn't pay much attention to that point because LDS church rules already require adults at all church youth activities (including LDS Scouting activities).

Given that Family Scouting is, by definition, all about including the entire family (parents, siblings) in Scouting activities, at least there is some consistency with that trend the new G2SS rules.

Edited September 8, 2018 by gblotter

[Oldscout448]

8 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

That's when the new G2SS rule that requires adults at all activities kick in.

which  my scouts are planning to totally ignore.    I am planning on going temporarily deaf whenever they are discussing any such activities.   I don't like flouting rules, but it's the best option I have at this point.  The patrol method may indeed be dying, but not on my watch

[T2Eagle]

19 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Ah - gotcha. I took the new YPT training when it first came out, but I guess I didn't pay much attention to that point because LDS church rules already require adults at all church youth activities (including LDS Scouting activities).

 

That's fascinating.  Just to clarify, up until and including now, if a patrol of LDS scouts wanted to say go for a five mile hike, they would have had to have two adults with them?  If so, then either we have to conclude that for a large part of the scouting movement the sky fell a long time ago, or we can conclude that maybe the sky isn't falling all that hard for the rest of scouting today.

ETA, I don't particularly care for the new rule, but I think it matters a lot more what an adult does than whether an adult is there.

[gblotter]

35 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

Just to clarify, up until and including now, if a patrol of LDS scouts wanted to say go for a five mile hike, they would have had to have two adults with them?

Yes. In any areas where guidelines differ between church and BSA, we will always go with the church rules.

Regarding supervision of youth activities, the LDS Safety Recommendations say:

Supervision
• The size of the group, the skill level of the participants, and the degree of challenge should be considered when determining the total number of adults needed to supervise the activity. Provide a minimum of two adults for each activity.
• Encourage use of the buddy system. Pair up youth to help them look out for each other.
• An individual adult must never be alone with an individual youth or child during an activity or the associated travel.
• Parents should be encouraged to help with supervision or transportation as needed.

I will also note that the LDS Safety Recommendations are 4 pages long, and I consider the guidelines to be rather common sense in nature.

LDS Safety Recommendations: https://www.lds.org/youth/activities/bc/pdfs/ym-activities/PD60004396-safety_eng.pdf?lang=eng

By comparison, BSA's Guide to Safe Scouting is 116 pages long. Enough said.

BSA's Guide to Safe Scouting: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by gblotter

[HelpfulTracks]

3 hours ago, gblotter said:

 

I will also note that the LDS Safety Recommendations are 4 pages long, and I consider the guidelines to be rather common sense in nature.

LDS Safety Recommendations: https://www.lds.org/youth/activities/bc/pdfs/ym-activities/PD60004396-safety_eng.pdf?lang=eng

By comparison, BSA's Guide to Safe Scouting is 116 pages long. Enough said.

BSA's Guide to Safe Scouting: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf

 

Uhh, can we the LDS Church’s help getting that adopted by BSA before y’all leave?!?

[qwazse]

Ostensibly (based on YPT training) a youth predator may be more likely use the organization's sanctioned independence to groom targets. To counter this, a never-leave-youth-to-their-own-devices strategy has been put in place.

But, the boardroom truth is liability. This policy (be it BSA's and LDS's) is out of an abundance of litigation. If a half dozen youth get together independently (for hike, bible study, movies, whatever) and a youth is abused, the organization (church or scout) can claim to not be at fault.

[The Latin Scot]

2 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Uhh, can we the LDS Church’s help getting that adopted by BSA before y’all leave?!?

Well, if the BSA hasn't wanted to emulate our "common sense" approach to safety by now, I doubt they'll suddenly want to do so by the end of next year.  I agree with @T2Eagle though:

6 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

"it matters a lot more what an adult does than whether an adult is there."

The patrol method is not based on the idea of adult-less activity, but rather boy-led adventure. Nothing about an adult's presence has to interfere with that guiding principle -- if they are wise, sensible adults who understand this, they will simply be on-hand at activities to guide and support the Scouts, without any kind of disruption of the boys' learning process. But regardless of their wisdom (or lack thereof) the fact that they are there should technically have no bearing on the functionality of the patrol method.

Now, if adults choose to disregard in practice those guidelines that should be followed in principle, that still does not alter the fact that the principle is fundamentally true: the patrol method works, with or without adults present. However, again, it's about using common sense. Not the common sense of whether or not they should even be there, but the common sense of what they do and say -- and of what they don't do, and don't say. So if the G2SS does eventually require adults at all activities, that won't be the factor that most affects the implementation and success of the patrol method. Ultimately, it will be, as it always has been, how those adults choose to deport themselves when in the company of the Scouts under their care.

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by The Latin Scot

[qwazse]

3 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

..... The patrol method is not based on the idea of adult-less activity, but rather boy-led adventure. Nothing about an adult's presence has to interfere with that guiding principle -- if they are wise, sensible adults who understand this, they will simply be on-hand at activities to guide and support the Scouts, without any kind of disruption of the boys' learning process. But regardless of their wisdom (or lack thereof) the fact that they are there should technically have no bearing on the functionality of the patrol method. ....

Um, actually, the patrol method (and the most ancient definition of scouting ... c.f. the twelve Israelite spies in Canaan) implies action in the complete absence -- yet under the command -- of the principal.

And, it will happen. It does happen. With or without BSA or LDS Young Men or any other youth-facing organizations. Sometimes it will be an innocent group of kids who just wanna fish on the far corner of grandpas farm. Other times it will be a street gang in a brutal turf war. Faced with the latter worst-case scenario, isn't it better that the would-be gang work on acquiring ideals and skills, developing solid and noble plans, then patrolling with increasing independence as their worth Is proven to be a net positive for their community?

[sst3rd]

Oh for crying out loud, the patrol method is workable even under these circumstances. You've just got to want it to happen. Keep throwing up excuses and you'll get your wish

 

I'm mentoring a new scoutmaster of a small urban troop that's reorganizing. This will be their relaunch from the summer. She's trained and gaining experience continuously. She wants a successful troop program for her son and all of his friends. She has several adults getting trained as we speak, but I always tell her to give the program to the patrol. They've responded well over the last year and had a great summer camp. I'll support this adult staff through the end of the year and call it a day. Once the boys realize that it really is their program, they'll continue to grow.

 

Yes, they've discussed the church having the troop go co-ed. I've explained the correct process of having a separate troop for girls, and their eyes got all glassy and teary. These adults (parents and leaders) and their sons want a boy only troop. The problem is the Pack is going co-ed. Yeah...………………………...

Take care,

sst3rd

[desertrat77]

I think the patrol method is a vanishing concept.  I can't remember the last time I've seen a troop even attempt to use it.  The patrols are just on paper.  The adults organize everything.

[gblotter]

On 9/8/2018 at 7:44 PM, desertrat77 said:

I think the patrol method is a vanishing concept.  I can't remember the last time I've seen a troop even attempt to use it.  The patrols are just on paper.  The adults organize everything.

I can't claim perfection, but our troop definitely attempts to use the Patrol Method.

This weekend, our troop is doing beach camping at a location voted on by the boys during the annual planning meeting led by the SPL. Adults made the actual campsite reservation because that requires a credit card and coordination with a private business. We are taking three boy patrols on the campout with each patrol doing their own menu planning and cooking. Adults will be cooking/eating separately as the Dad Patrol. The organization of menus and camping equipment assignments has been led by either the Patrol Leader or an individual Scout working on Camping merit badge requirement #4b. During the planning meeting, notes were tracked by our Troop Scribe. We also have a boy organizing the campfire program to satisfy Communications merit badge requirement #8. Our Chaplain Aide (a boy) will lead us in grace for the campout meals. The beach activities will be low-key games chosen and organized by the boys.

We aren't perfect, but I give our troop  at least a B grade in Patrol Method. Adults do make our camping reservations after the boys vote on the destinations. As Scoutmaster, I send out communication emails to the parents - that doesn't come from the boys. But certainly we are attempting to use the Patrol Method - the adults do not organize everything.

[Jameson76]

On 9/8/2018 at 10:44 PM, desertrat77 said:

I think the patrol method is a vanishing concept.  I can't remember the last time I've seen a troop even attempt to use it.  The patrols are just on paper.  The adults organize everything.

We do our best.  

The PLC (or Greenbar) meets monthly to plan the meetings, they cycle through activities by patrol at the meetings.  For campouts the patrols cook and work together.  They setup patrol areas (tarp / table / cooking) and all the Scouts meals are together.  The leaders camp hopefully out of sight, but sometimes that is not possible.  At worst well away. 

On campouts they do tent with friends or hammock in groups, not necessarily patrols.  At summer camp they function in patrols for waiter duty, campsite duties, etc.

The Scouts plan the outings and determine at the annual meeting what and where we will be going for outings.  Yes the leaders make the actual reservations.  At the outings they run the weekends, leaders sort of function as timekeepers.  They handle openings, campfires, any issues, Scout's own service, police lines for cleanup, gear setup, take down, and loading.

Not 100% perfect, but the patrol method is our underlying effort.  If you come at dinner you will see 6 distinct patrol areas and 6 stoves cooking differing meals with Scouts working within their groups to do different tasks.  No leaders involved, we just amble by and watch

Edited September 12, 2018 by Jameson76

[DuctTape]

The Patrol method in my opinion is also a goal. What I mean is, looking at any of our descriptions are there areas where we can improve ie more cohesive patrol/less troop, and/or scouts doing more/adults less. When I list all the things we adults actually do, I also make a note of which could(should) be done by the boys. If the PL isn't ready to do it, I need to get him trained up. Ultimately the only items that only adults can do are things like driving and legal contracts and such. From what I have experienced, the more cohesive the patrol, and when the patrols do activities instead of just troop activities, the less the adults are doing. Thus I see the patrol method as a means and a goal since the patrols and scouts are not static but growing, learning and changing. Looking at progress towards the independence instead of "this is how its done currently and forever".