Is "Adding Requirements" the new/old buzz phrase?

[Eagledad]

15 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

I would want to know, and would ask the scout why they refuse?

The BOR is not a "test." As such, I am not sure what the Board really learns by asking the scout, in a situation of extreme nervousness, to recite the oath from memory. If they get it wrong, does that reveal something about their character?

So, perhaps more importantly, what does the BOR accomplish by asking memorization questions? I think instead of asking a scout to recite something, ask the scout how they lived something.

 

Can anything of importance be gained from an extreme nervous scout? Let's not look for reasons for not learning about a scouts understanding and experience of the program. It's better to just have compassion for being nervous.

Barry 

[Eagledad]

13 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

That would lead to a somewhat interesting EBOR.  I guess the discussion would be "why?".  Not sure as a member of the EBOR that would preclude passing them on the EBOR.  I guess if the Scout chose to refuse to say the pledge, one or more of the EBOR members could at that point decline to continue to participate in the board if they so chose.  One form of protest is as good as another.  At that point the district could determine if there were enough members to continue, give the unit an opportunity to source more members, or reschedule.

Our council has had scouts protest in the EBOR one way or another. I know of only one scout that didn't pass, but that was at his request. He wanted to use failing to highlight his passion for his protest (I don't remember what his protest was). He made it easy for the board and got what he wanted. I always wondered what his parent thought.

There was a time, I'm told, that Eagle Scout candidates had to plead their case to a local judge instead of a BOR. I like that because the intent was for the scout to prove himself in understanding the importance of making moral decisions.

Barry

[Hawkwin]

41 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Can anything of importance be gained from an extreme nervous scout? Let's not look for reasons for not learning about a scouts understanding and experience of the program. It's better to just have compassion for being nervous.

Barry 

Agreed. I think?

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Can anything of importance be gained from an extreme nervous scout?

Possibly, and most likely if the leaders at the BOR let it develop.  The scout may be nervous for many reasons.  Sitting in an unfamiliar area and talking with adults they are not really familiar with may be well out of their comfort zone.  Good probability they will have similar instances occurring in their life as they grow older.

Having the Scout confront that, deal with it, be successful in their BOR will be some personal growth.  It does become a balance.  I have been on some with really nervous scouts.  With one as we asked some basic questions, he got flustered, stumbled through, sort of started to panic.  We stopped the BOR, told him to take a breath, go grab some water (we were at an outing) and come back in 5 minutes so we could start again.  He did and was much better, gained some confidence.

[ParkMan]

7 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Possibly, and most likely if the leaders at the BOR let it develop.  The scout may be nervous for many reasons.  Sitting in an unfamiliar area and talking with adults they are not really familiar with may be well out of their comfort zone.  Good probability they will have similar instances occurring in their life as they grow older.

Having the Scout confront that, deal with it, be successful in their BOR will be some personal growth.  It does become a balance.  I have been on some with really nervous scouts.  With one as we asked some basic questions, he got flustered, stumbled through, sort of started to panic.  We stopped the BOR, told him to take a breath, go grab some water (we were at an outing) and come back in 5 minutes so we could start again.  He did and was much better, gained some confidence.

I think this is one of the biggest benefits for a BOR.  I see this as part of the adult association part of Scouting.  Here you have a Scout learning to go to a serious meeting and discuss things on consequence with adults.  That's a very good skill to build up.

However, adults have to be careful not to abuse it.  I don't mind some explanation and show in the meeting.  We all have to go to adult meetings and be prepared to back up what we've done.  Knowing a foundational element like the oath or law doesn't seem crazy.  What we do is ask them go lead both at every BOR.  At lower ranks, we'll help them along. By the time they hit Star, they ought to know it's coming and be prepared.  If they didn't, we wouldn't fail them.  But, we would talk about why they were not prepared to lead it.

[Eagledad]

52 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Possibly, and most likely if the leaders at the BOR let it develop.  The scout may be nervous for many reasons.  Sitting in an unfamiliar area and talking with adults they are not really familiar with may be well out of their comfort zone.  Good probability they will have similar instances occurring in their life as they grow older.

 

We tried an experiment where we included a senior scout in the board. It made all the difference in the world getting the young scouts comfortable. 

Barry

Edited September 10, 2018 by Eagledad

[Eagle94-A1]

49 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

We tried an experiment where we included a senior scout in the board. It made all the difference in the world getting the young scouts comfortable. 

Barry

Reminding of the time that Scouts sat on BORs. I remember chairing a bunch until  we found out national disallowed it. Agree best way to make a young, nervous Scout comfortable.

[Jameson76]

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Reminding of the time that Scouts sat on BORs. I remember chairing a bunch until  we found out national disallowed it. Agree best way to make a young, nervous Scout comfortable.

Shockingly National BSA may not in fact know what is best 

[Eagledad]

The BOR lost it's meaning over the years when the adults took it over. National wants accountability, but they don't want risking abuse during retesting, which was the cause of taking it from the scouts in the first place. Still, there needs to be a program check somewhere in the process, so this is what they came up with. If I were king, I would require both the Scout and his parents get a BOR. Scouts aren't going to spill their guts to a bunch of adult strangers, but they do to their parents. The parents will fill in blanks and add a little of their own opinion. 

Barry

[Treflienne]

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

I guess if the Scout chose to refuse to say the pledge,

If the scout were not a U.S. citizen,  he might politely explain why he does not say the Pledge of Allegience (to the flag and to the republic).    But I assume any scouters would be sympathetic to such a special case.

[qwazse]

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The BOR lost it's meaning over the years when the adults took it over. National wants accountability, but they don't want risking abuse during retesting, which was the cause of taking it from the scouts in the first place. Still, there needs to be a program check somewhere in the process, so this is what they came up with. If I were king, I would require both the Scout and his parents get a BOR. Scouts aren't going to spill their guts to a bunch of adult strangers, but they do to their parents. The parents will fill in blanks and add a little of their own opinion.

And, if I were king of the world I would lift the age 18 deadline. Can't pass BoR as a scout? Come back when you're a trained ASM and see if you figured out how to command the respect that you couldn't before.

P.S. - I think my dad was on most of my BoRs. I know for sure he said nothing while there (just like he were playing pea-knuckle)  -- if any blanks were gonna be filled, it was on me. On the car ride home, maybe he'd voice an opinion. I remember a few of those, and they didn't have anything to do with the goings on in my BoR.

[Eagle94-A1]

I have enough dealings with helicopter parents outside on BORs, don't need to deal with them in a BOR. I do not think BORs are ruined by adults, but rather by the inability to retest and make sure the Scouts know what they are supposed to know. "The badge represents what the Scout can do, not what he has done," as an oldder version of the Guide to Awards and Advancement stated.

[perdidochas]

On 9/5/2018 at 4:45 PM, Jameson76 said:

Interesting you add Oath and Law at BOR and EBOR as an added requirement.  We always have the Scouts start the BOR (and EBOR) with the Oath and Law, not as a pass/fail but as a way to set the tone.  Same for uniform, not required but encouraged.  Same for the handbook, though while not specifically required at the BOR it is needed.

Never a test, but they should be prepared to discuss their accomplishment and what they have gained from the advancment

We do the same.  It's just part of the custom of the BORs (which we extend to the EBOR).  The Oath and Law, as you say, aren't pass/fail, but part of how we do things. We also do it at the beginning of every meeting. It's part of our culture.  We also do the Pledge of Allegience at BORs and meetings.  At one of the first EBORs I helped with, we had an Eagle Candidate who couldn't say the Pledge for the life of him. Yes, he still became an Eagle.  It was just interesting to see what nerves can do. 

[perdidochas]

3 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

I would want to know, and would ask the scout why they refuse?

The BOR is not a "test." As such, I am not sure what the Board really learns by asking the scout, in a situation of extreme nervousness, to recite the oath from memory. If they get it wrong, does that reveal something about their character?

So, perhaps more importantly, what does the BOR accomplish by asking memorization questions? I think instead of asking a scout to recite something, ask the scout how they lived something.

 

Well, IMHO, in our troop, it's sort of comforting.  We always begin meetings with the Oath and Law, and yes, it's from memory (albeit assisted by the crowd).  Nothing about their character if they can't do it.  Does give us a hint on their nervousness. 

[DuctTape]

IIRC, one of the reasons for the BOR back in the really old days was for boys to gain "interview experience" for when they were job seeking. To help them become comfortable with strangers asking them questions about their experience, and accomplishments.