72 hour rule

[Sentinel947]

Makes no sense. Which unit is logging and tracking parents at 72 hours in various events? One trip as the rule seems to clearly state makes more sense. 

[69RoadRunner]

6 hours ago, NealOnWheels said:

They can intepretate it however they want but if they expect the membership to correctly follow the rule then they need to clearly comunicate it to the membership.

The 72 hour period seems rather arbitrary to me.  Why not 48 hours? Or 24? Why a time period at all?

BSA apparently thinks non-registered adults are like Gremlins being fed after midnight.  In the 73rd hour they all turn into predators.

I suspect this was some sort of committee compromise and they all agreed that 72 hours was good.

[fred johnson]

I'm agreeing the interpretation is bad and BSA G2SS is one activity and not meaning one program year.  

BUT ... I'm interpreting some of these changes as good.  From what I've seen in the last few years, we have too many parents on boy scout camp outs and it damages the program.  We have too many parents at boy scout summer camp.  It damages the program.  Helpful registered parents are critical, but too many causes real damage to the program.

[Eagle94-A1]

15 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

I'm agreeing the interpretation is bad and BSA G2SS is one activity and not meaning one program year.  

BUT ... I'm interpreting some of these changes as good.  From what I've seen in the last few years, we have too many parents on boy scout camp outs and it damages the program.  We have too many parents at boy scout summer camp.  It damages the program.  Helpful registered parents are critical, but too many causes real damage to the program.

While I agree 110% with this as my troop has too many helicopter and lawnmower and gunship parents, I am going ot play Devil's Advocate as I am still affiliated with this one, parent heavy program.

What about all the Cub Scout parents?

 

Rule being applied to the entire year is asinine. All Cub parents would need to be registered is indeed the 72 hours is for a program year.

[ValleyBoy]

22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

While I agree 110% with this as my troop has too many helicopter and lawnmower and gunship parents, I am going ot play Devil's Advocate as I am still affiliated with this one, parent heavy program.

What about all the Cub Scout parents?

 

Rule being applied to the entire year is asinine. All Cub parents would need to be registered is indeed the 72 hours is for a program year.

I can see being registered with the troop but when it comes to packs I do not see where this should apply.  My reason is the following.  Excluding Webelos the only over night camping that a cub scout can participate in is family camping where a adult relative has to attend.  My council has a fall family camp (3 weekends) and a spring family camp (1 weekend).  Packs do attend and reserve campsites but all registration for the event are done by each family not the pack.  

[Pale Horse]

72 hours across all events for the year?  Yeah right, let's break that down at the Cub Scout level.

• 10 Pack meetings @ 1.5 hour each (including setup and break down) = 15 hours.  Down to 57 hours left.
• ~14 ordinary Den meetings @ 1.5 hours = 21 hours.  Down to 36 hours.
• ~8 outdoor adventure den meetings (hike, field trip, etc.) @ 2 hours = 16.  20 hours left.
• 3 community service events @ 2 hours = 6 hours.  Down to 14.
• 3 Popcorn Show & Sells (oops better have 2 registered leaders at ALL scouting events 🙄) @ 2 hours = 6.  Down to 8 hours.
• Trip to the corn maze with the pack for 4 hours.  Just 4 hours remaining.

These are just some things off the top of my head, but I think we get the picture.  These are all events that "ordinary" parents attend, not leaders.  I haven't even got to Day camp or heaven forbid they want to come on a family camping overnighter.  It's pretty obvious the rule is written for singular activities exceeding 72 hours.  There's no way around it, if you did it else-wise every single parent would need to be registered.

[scotteg83]

56 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

72 hours across all events for the year?  Yeah right, let's break that down at the Cub Scout level.

• 10 Pack meetings @ 1.5 hour each (including setup and break down) = 15 hours.  Down to 57 hours left.
• ~14 ordinary Den meetings @ 1.5 hours = 21 hours.  Down to 36 hours.
• ~8 outdoor adventure den meetings (hike, field trip, etc.) @ 2 hours = 16.  20 hours left.
• 3 community service events @ 2 hours = 6 hours.  Down to 14.
• 3 Popcorn Show & Sells (oops better have 2 registered leaders at ALL scouting events 🙄) @ 2 hours = 6.  Down to 8 hours.
• Trip to the corn maze with the pack for 4 hours.  Just 4 hours remaining.

These are just some things off the top of my head, but I think we get the picture.  These are all events that "ordinary" parents attend, not leaders.  I haven't even got to Day camp or heaven forbid they want to come on a family camping overnighter.  It's pretty obvious the rule is written for singular activities exceeding 72 hours.  There's no way around it, if you did it else-wise every single parent would need to be registered.

Our pack goes camping 4 times a year.  Average 40 hours a campout 5pm Friday to 9am Sunday, that means my Cubs cannot attend all den meetings and pack meetings and only attend one campout, without going over 72 hours. 

 

I will say, that my council is claiming that if the parent is just in the background and not participating (not giving instructions or teaching) then that time does not count to the 72.  

[Saltface]

6 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

I will say, that my council is claiming that if the parent is just in the background and not participating (not giving instructions or teaching) then that time does not count to the 72.

So does the clock stop while you're asleep? Hopefully that's a solid eight hours of not interacting with the scouts.

[fred johnson]

43 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

I will say, that my council is claiming that if the parent is just in the background and not participating (not giving instructions or teaching) then that time does not count to the 72.  

Interesting ... That explicitly contradicts the G2SS ... "All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders."  Pretty clear that in the background means they are still present.  

[DuctTape]

5 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

72 hours across all events for the year?  Yeah right, let's break that down at the Cub Scout level.

• 10 Pack meetings @ 1.5 hour each (including setup and break down) = 15 hours.  Down to 57 hours left.
• ~14 ordinary Den meetings @ 1.5 hours = 21 hours.  Down to 36 hours.
• ~8 outdoor adventure den meetings (hike, field trip, etc.) @ 2 hours = 16.  20 hours left.
• 3 community service events @ 2 hours = 6 hours.  Down to 14.
• 3 Popcorn Show & Sells (oops better have 2 registered leaders at ALL scouting events 🙄) @ 2 hours = 6.  Down to 8 hours.
• Trip to the corn maze with the pack for 4 hours.  Just 4 hours remaining.

These are just some things off the top of my head, but I think we get the picture.  These are all events that "ordinary" parents attend, not leaders.  I haven't even got to Day camp or heaven forbid they want to come on a family camping overnighter.  It's pretty obvious the rule is written for singular activities exceeding 72 hours.  There's no way around it, if you did it else-wise every single parent would need to be registered.

Has cubs changed that much since I was a kid? Our den meetings had just the two den leaders, no other parents. The same for all other den activities. It was rare for another parent to be around. We did not have that many whole pack meetings that I recall. Pinewood derby, blue&gold, i recall one holiday themed party. Everything else was den based with just the leaders.

Perhaps that is why we transitioned to the patrol method so easily. 

[Eagle1993]

4 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Has cubs changed that much since I was a kid? Our den meetings had just the two den leaders, no other parents. The same for all other den activities. It was rare for another parent to be around. We did not have that many whole pack meetings that I recall. Pinewood derby, blue&gold, i recall one holiday themed party. Everything else was den based with just the leaders.

Perhaps that is why we transitioned to the patrol method so easily. 

How Packs run probably vary more than Troops.  With that said, we have been encouraged (by DE) to have parents attend all den meetings.  It is required for Lion and Tiger.  I push back after Tiger as it’s time to cut the cord. We have monthly Pack meetings or outings.  

We we were told the 72 hour rule primarily impacts Troops at summer camp (when parents attend) as Cub Scout events rarely last 72 straight hours.  But who knows.  Note that I have no plan tracking hours for each parent across the year... I don’t believe that was the intent.

[desertrat77]

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Has cubs changed that much since I was a kid? Our den meetings had just the two den leaders, no other parents. The same for all other den activities. It was rare for another parent to be around. We did not have that many whole pack meetings that I recall. Pinewood derby, blue&gold, i recall one holiday themed party. Everything else was den based with just the leaders.

Perhaps that is why we transitioned to the patrol method so easily. 

Duct Tape, sounds like we had very similar experiences....

Parents used to view scouts as a place for their kids to grow up.  Parents were rarely seen and certainly never part of your activities.  Sure, if you misbehaved and the leaders felt it necessary to tell your parents, you could be assured of a good whipping when you got home.  Parents attended courts of honor.  Afterwards, in the station wagon on the way home, mom might say a few words of praise.  She wouldn't over do it.  Dad wouldn't say a word.  He'd be silent, driving, lighting another Winston, but you could tell he was proud of you.

Other than that, scouting was a place to go on adventures and have fun.  And perhaps, if you had the gumption, earn a few things.  If you didn't want to earn a single badge, that was okay.  Just be a good den/patrol member.  That's all that was asked.

If you'll excuse me for stating the obvious, I don't think the cubs have changed.  Parenting styles have changed.  And generally speaking, National cannot, will not, publish coherent policy.

Edited September 6, 2018 by desertrat77

[Pale Horse]

11 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Has cubs changed that much since I was a kid? Our den meetings had just the two den leaders, no other parents. The same for all other den activities. It was rare for another parent to be around. We did not have that many whole pack meetings that I recall. Pinewood derby, blue&gold, i recall one holiday themed party. Everything else was den based with just the leaders.

Perhaps that is why we transitioned to the patrol method so easily. 

For us, we stress that Cub Scouting is not a drop and run event.  In addition to the required Lion & Tiger adult partners, we strongly encourage families to attend all events.  Wolves and Bears especially, and gradually tapering off through the Webelos years.

Besides, I have so much fun as an adult leader, why would I not want other parents to share in the joy and fun of seeing their sons (and now daughters) learn and grow?  Just being present does not necessarily make anyone a helicopter parent. Nor does it take away from the Scouts individual accomplishments.

[fred johnson]

13 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

If you'll excuse me for stating the obvious, I don't think the cubs have changed.  Parenting styles have changed.  

Hugely agreed.  I think for years people have been criticizing un-involved and distant parenting.  Teachers praise parents that shows up for each and every conference and meet with each and every teacher.  Parents have to initial packets sent home with their kids each day.  

It's not that parenting has changed.  It's that how society teaches parents to parent has changed and it's bad.  

 

13 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

And generally speaking, National cannot, will not, publish coherent policy.

I hugely disagree with this.  My opinion is national is trying to heard cats.  We have strong willed and strong opinion-ed scout leaders who have been leaders for dozens and dozens of years.  BSA has an extremely hard job publishing any direction that will be followed and followed consistently. 

The 72 hour rule seems as well written as I've seen.  But it's being interpreted differently than the clear words state.  

 

[walk in the woods]

9 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

The 72 hour rule seems as well written as I've seen.  But it's being interpreted differently than the clear words state.  

But to the OPs point, it's being interpreted differently than the clear language by the people that wrote the clear language to begin with, National.