Why the BSA should have stayed out of the transgender trend

[Eagledad]

The article is about freedom of speech, but the subject of the debate is a study of why youth are changing the gender identity. 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/30/brown-u-pulls-gender-dysphoria-study-worried-that-findings-might-invalidate-perspectives-transgender-community.html

""“The onset of gender dysphoria seemed to occur in the context of belonging to a peer group where one, multiple, or even all of the friends have become gender dysphoric and transgender-identified during the same timeframe,” she added.""

.........

""Parents said teens “exhibited an increase in social media/internet use prior to disclosure of a transgender identity,” which led to the conclusion that “friends and online sources could spread certain beliefs.”"

If scout leaders encourage youth follow today's fad, aren't they part of the problem?

Barry

 

 

[qwazse]

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

... If scout leaders encourage youth follow today's fad, aren't they part of the problem? ...

Inasmuch as this can be treated like an epidemic ... the first step is prevention. As scouts, we all tittered at the "your body's about to change" script (which was one of the passages the SM would have an SPL read every year). But, it was a dose of preparation for what was ahead.

Now, is keeping a gender dysphoric youth in the troop a problem? It could be.

The problem is nobody knows how many trans kids are driven by gender dysphoria (which originally was measured in adults because it had observable effects on work and home life), or a fear of the unknown, or anticipation over the perceived benefits that the opposite sex seems to garner. Those are three different things. And honestly, from my perspective, scouting rejects all of them.

The wilderness doesn't care about your sex. It might if you are more likely to have young to prey on, but that's not personal. The hardest thing for any scout I've worked with is for them to become comfortable in their own skin. Many fear backpacking, for example, because they have to leave something behind. Don't like your sex (or anything else about yourself)? Don't put it in your pack. Afraid of the unknown? We'll give you clueless friends to share it with. Think the other half has it better? They need to use the same digger to go to the bathroom.

[malraux]

Reading the study, I don't know that BSA policy on transgendered individuals would have much effect. The process described doesn't apply to someone with childhood gender dysphoria, but when a close group of friends all come out together, usually as part of a maladaptive response to trauma. That's something that could happen regardless of rules, nor do rules really prevent that from occurring. The study also isn't a prevalence study or anything else. 

[Jameson76]

It is a interesting study and article.  This speaks volumes to peer pressure, also it speaks volumes to what is not known about gender identity and how transgender feelings are formed.  One hopes much of this is not like tattoos, they seem really cool when you are 18 - 20....25 years later many wonder what in the world they were thinking.

[Eagledad]

This has also been brought with homosexuality several years ago. One study was about female college students experimenting with lesbianism because it was a fad. Not because they felt that was their preferred sexual desire. My high school teacher son said he doesn't tell me a lot of stuff in this area about his students because I wouldn't believe him. But, peer pressure makes their lives very complicated.

I am so glad my kids are grown up. However, they are firing grand kids at me like a machine gun. The worrying never stops. 

Barry

Edited August 30, 2018 by Eagledad

[FireStone]

Ignoring the original source (Fox News is a little too biased for my liking), and struggling to find a neutral source, I'm inclined to lean on the Brown official statement and take a wait-and-see approach to this one. They're saying that the study was pulled because there are questions about study’s research methodology and analyses. Hard to form any real conclusions until/unless the research is validated. 

That said, I'm immediately dubious of anything that blames social media for transgender feelings in youth when kids who aren't exposed to social media and the same peer pressures (kids in the 7 or 8 year old age range for example) can still exhibit transgender behaviors. 

I'm sure I “exhibited an increase in social media/internet use" prior to diagnosis of my hernia a couple months ago, because that's what people do these days when something is happening to their body. They research it and use social media to ask questions. That doesn't mean my hernia was a "fad". 

Blaming the Internet for this stuff seems really thin. And as mentioned, it doesn't explain how kids not using the Internet still come out as transgender. 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by FireStone

[Chris1]

Great, now you have started a new fad of hernias. Very good point about increased internet use when researching something. I was about to make that same comment

[FireStone]

30 minutes ago, Chris1 said:

Great, now you have started a new fad of hernias. Very good point about increased internet use when researching something. I was about to make that same comment

I've been trying the same thing with excessive Internet research on six-pack abs but so far, no luck. 

😁

[Saltface]

9 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I've been trying the same thing with excessive Internet research on six-pack abs but so far, no luck. 

😁

You might have better luck with Body Integrity Dysphoria. Hernias and paunches are physical maladies, not mental ones.

[DeanRx]

I think there are a few issues at play that might not be considered in the research article.

First, the internet provides two things that were lacking in previous generations 1) anonymity - youth can go on chat boards and social media and ask / inquire / experiment with very fluid gender dynamics without much repercussion.  Often, this can be done in an online culture that is very open to these ideas and is at least neutral towards them if not outright encouraging instead of disapproving.  2) They can find like minded youth, struggling with the same gender identity issues.  They find not just a couple, but hundreds or thousands.  All of a sudden, you're not such an odd duck.

Second, this leads to normalization of the idea.  When we were youth, if someone thought they might be a girl trapped in a boys body... they shut the hell up about it.  There was no support group to validate the feelings.  So, the question is the trend more prevalent?  Or is it just more openly accepted now, so those that fall somewhere between 1 and zero feel more comfortable discussing / exploring it?

Third, yes - its trendy.  I think this plays into it somewhat.  I knew of girls in college who were referred to as LUGs (Lesbian Until Graduation).  Why do this?  Well a few things... They do not have to worry about the pressure of having a boyfriend while pursuing their studies. They can fool around as much as they want (physically) without fear of a birth control failure and an unwanted pregnancy ruining their career plans.  Even in the late 1990s, it was empowering for a woman to self identify this way.  I know several who hung out with nothing but other gals... dated... hooked up / etc... that have since settled down with a guy and had the kids / family they always wanted.  I know some for whom this was a true sexuality and remain in female - female relationships today.

So, all this boils down to... is there a higher prevalence?  Or just a greater acceptance and thus less taboo about identifying as they are truly feeling?  Someone made the tattoo analogy, which I think is a red herring.  A tattoo is permanent.  You can be trans / gay / bi in high school and college and revert to a traditional hetero lifestyle when you are ready if one wants.

Historically, people waited until they were adults and self sufficient to come out to their families as gay or lesbian.  Mostly because of the stigma and most don't want to loose support (physically / financial / emotional) if the family takes it the wrong way... so best to be able to support yourself.  Again, with the stigma relaxed or nearly non-existent any longer... there is no real detriment to keeping one's true sexuality hidden from friends and family for as many years as most people did in the past.

[FireStone]

13 hours ago, DeanRx said:

...You can be trans / gay / bi in high school and college and revert to a traditional hetero lifestyle when you are ready if one wants...

Were those people ever really trans/gay/bi? 

What about the people who are LGBTQ their entire lives? That's a long time to stick with a so-called "trend". 

What about the people who are gay and want to be straight but can't be? They seek encouragement and normalization of heterosexuality but can't make it work. They try therapy, and it fails. How is it possible that someone can be convinced to become gay but then not be able to go back to being straight? 

What about the people who suffer severely for being LGBTQ? Socially, in their family, regionally living in a place that is not welcoming of LGBTQ folks, etc? Why would they choose that? Why would they prefer to live like that, even if the Internet hypothetically validates something that isn't truly what they are? 

I just don't buy the "the Internet said it's ok so I'll be LGBTQ" thing. Think about what that really means for the people who are LGBTQ for life. Who marry LGBTQ. I don't know about anyone else, but I know that my feelings about my own gender and sexual orientation could not be swayed at all what-so-ever by any amount of Internet browsing. If someone can marry someone of the same sex, in my mind that's not a whim, a trend, anything even remotely like that. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by FireStone

[walk in the woods]

Regardless of how one feels about the topic at hand, this highlights the current problem with academic publishing.  PLOS is becoming more accepted as an open-access peer-reviewed journal. In theory this paper was reviewed by at least two or three other academics prior to publishing.  Once public however, and after people complained about their feelings being hurt, the methodology suddenly comes into question.  But we use peer-review in order to sort out these methodological issues.  Unfortunately, instead of somebody who questioned the study's finding publishing a separate study, or, detailing their concerns in a letter to the journal,  or publishing a study using the same data but showing it to be non-reproducible, the mob demanded the study be taken down and Brown/PLOS complied.  Anybody who challenges the Academy's liberal zeitgeist will be shouted down and destroyed regardless of due process.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

Regardless of how one feels about the topic at hand, this highlights the current problem with academic publishing.  PLOS is becoming more accepted as an open-access peer-reviewed journal. In theory this paper was reviewed by at least two or three other academics prior to publishing.  Once public however, and after people complained about their feelings being hurt, the methodology suddenly comes into question.  But we use peer-review in order to sort out these methodological issues.  Unfortunately, instead of somebody who questioned the study's finding publishing a separate study, or, detailing their concerns in a letter to the journal,  or publishing a study using the same data but showing it to be non-reproducible, the mob demanded the study be taken down and Brown/PLOS complied.  Anybody who challenges the Academy's liberal zeitgeist will be shouted down and destroyed regardless of due process.

One reason why folks need to use librarians for research. Anyone remember "Mitochondria: Structure, Function, and Clinical Relevance"  by Drs. Lucas McGeorge and Annette Kin ? The garbage was published in the International Journal of Molecular Biology: Open Access, Austin Journal of Pharmacology and Therapeutics, and the American Research Journal of Biosciences. The American Journal of Medical and Biological Research accepted the paper, however, they asked for a $360 fee, which the author declined to pay.

[Sniktaw]

I don't think it's the internet causing this. It's the peer relationships, which for today's youth are largely held on and heightened by internet/social media sites. 

Times change. When I was in high school and college, it was not cool to be gay, but it was starting to be more accepted. When my brother's kids were in high school, "bi" was the thing to be. Eight years later, we've got a mother posting photos of her baby boy with bows on his head, proclaiming her wish that he grows up to be gay. Haven't heard from her in a while, so don't know if she's grown up or moved on to a more extreme vision for her son's future.

Sure, some gay-to-straight people have been genuinely confused about their sexuality. But many of the temporarily gay, bi, dysphoric, etc are just seeking attention. The proliferation of "genders" and constant ramming-down-our-throats of unscientific diagnoses has made a wide array of socially acceptable, no, socially desirable, attention-seeking behaviors common among youth.

In general, I think people who jump on the bandwagon of a diagnosis tend to hurt the cause for people actually suffering from a condition. But maybe this is good for the non-straight movement. Kind of like how soooo many people are gluten-free--they've created a market for food that is good for people with an actual diagnosis.

Not sure that this is best for the merely temporary pioneers of these identities, though.

[Fehler]

"Diagnosis"?  "Suffering from a condition"?