Scouting Magazine - betting the farm on girls

[Jameson76]

7 minutes ago, cocomax said:

What I am seeing around here (in my district) are the new women scouters do not have to follow the rules. They can change any aspect of a troop, pack, training program to match their own personal wishes, they do not have to follow any rules. Men are not allowed to say anything, out of fear of an emotional outburst.  Good men are being pushed out, attacked and dismissed. 

Anything a women wants is pretty much allowed and is extremely destructive ( when it is something that openly breaks the rules, and/or drives away the boys). 

and things are just getting worse and worse. . .  

 

 

That is not good

Our unit is pretty old school I guess.  All the key leaders (SM and ASM's) are guys, same with the committee members that regularly attend campouts and summer camps.  We have female committee heavily involved with multiple support functions, but none in youth facing roles.  We get support from moms (and dads) for driving to and from outings, etc.  Not sure what is happening at the district level, that does not impact us.  We are the largest troop in district at 100+ (x2 from the next sized one) so we have momentum and resources to do our own thing.  That is in fact a blessing.

[NJCubScouter]

43 minutes ago, cocomax said:

What I am seeing around here (in my district) are the new women scouters do not have to follow the rules. They can change any aspect of a troop, pack, training program to match their own personal wishes, they do not have to follow any rules. Men are not allowed to say anything, out of fear of an emotional outburst.  Good men are being pushed out, attacked and dismissed. 

Anything a women wants is pretty much allowed and is extremely destructive ( when it is something that openly breaks the rules, and/or drives away the boys). 

and things are just getting worse and worse. . .  

Can you give some examples of what you have seen?

[gblotter]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

Perhaps I am; one of the drawbacks of getting old and cantankerous.

You and I are both old enough to be cantankerous.

10 hours ago, skeptic said:

take a real look and listen to the voices that are most important, those of the youth being served.

As a current Scoutmaster with a troop of 30 Scouts, I do a lot of looking and listening. I hear concern from the boys about losing their program. I see them kicking advancement into overdrive to finish Eagle quickly and then exit. This summer we took 14 Scouts to camp. Based on current polling, next year we will likely get only 5 signing up for a co-ed summer camp experience. Families are making other plans and moving on from Scouting. This "perceived negativity" is not imagined.

10 hours ago, skeptic said:

Reality is that adjustments will be made and those focused on playing the game will work to smooth it out and move forward.

The reality is that once people walk away, it is too late for adjustments to smooth it out.

10 hours ago, skeptic said:

 if heaven forbid one of the terrible things predicted does happen, the few will parade it around with loud "I told you so's".

I'm always surprised when people with age don't have the accompanying wisdom to learn from past mistakes. I earned my Eagle in 1974. I remember well BSA's disaster with the Improved Scouting Program of the 1970s which also attempted to re-engineer Scouting for modern sensibilities. There was a similar "get done and get out" attitude back then in reaction to divisive changes forced upon the masses by the enlightened folks at BSA National. It resulted in a devastating membership loss of 2.5 million, and the CSE was forced into early retirement. There was no parading around and "I told you so's'" - people just left. BSA does not have the robust membership and financial health to survive a similar disaster this time around. I'm beyond sad to see this reenactment happening before my eyes.

Edited August 30, 2018 by gblotter

[cocomax]

The worst example of things gone wrong is a near by troop with 56 scouts had their scout master driven off by a mom (wood badge trained mom).

This mom's husband took over the job of SM,  and she is on the troop committee. She changed things so that the cub pack, troop and venture crew all meet at the same time and the place in the same room.  The venture crew which includes girls,  is treated like part of the troop and is her way of going co-ed.  The scouts and crew are required to run the cub dens to make things easier for the parents. The scouts do not get to have meetings of their own.   Most of the adults of the troop are very overweight so hiking is out of the question. Their outings consist of car camping with the adults cooking and everyone playing on their cell phones for entertainment. The SM (husband) just sits there (when he is not cooking) and she runs everything.

They go to merit badge colleges where they get 3 merit badges in a single weekend.

If you watch this group of cubs, crew and scouts at one of their car camping outings you see that they are all treated like tiger cubs,  the only one screaming orders is the mom in charge, the boys have ZERO say and no chance to lead anything.

The contact info for the troop was always her name, it was like her SM husband did not really exist. 

This mom acts like she is a bad example of a  SM, PL, and SPL all rolled into one.

She is a proud feminist and is quick to throw the "IF MOMMY IS NOT HAPPY THEN NOBODY IS HAPPY!" card your way, and she acted like she was everyone's mommy.  If you say the slightest thing might softly question one of here wishes, she will start crying and then get angry.

The troop was doomed and the boys walked away,  nobody could do anything.  The troop dropped to just 6 boys. 

She was hiding behind the fact that she was a woman to get her way.  If you say anything, you are a horrible women hating sexist toxic male pig. . .

I do not know of any way to deal with any woman that is using this tactic to get her way.   There are many women like her in my district and their numbers are increasing.

 

[Jameson76]

4 minutes ago, cocomax said:

The worst example of things gone wrong is a near by troop with 56 scouts had their scout master driven off by a mom (wood badge trained mom).

This mom's husband took over the job of SM,  and she is on the troop committee. She changed things so that the cub pack, troop and venture crew all meet at the same time and the place in the same room.  The venture crew which includes girls,  is treated like part of the troop and is her way of going co-ed.  The scouts and crew are required to run the cub dens to make things easier for the parents. The scouts do not get to have meetings of their own.   Most of the adults of the troop are very overweight so hiking is out of the question. Their outings consist of car camping with the adults cooking and everyone playing on their cell phones for entertainment. The SM (husband) just sits there (when he is not cooking) and she runs everything.

They go to merit badge colleges where they get 3 merit badges in a single weekend.

If you watch this group of cubs, crew and scouts at one of their car camping outings you see that they are all treated like tiger cubs,  the only one screaming orders is the mom in charge, the boys have ZERO say and no chance to lead anything.

The contact info for the troop was always her name, it was like her SM husband did not really exist. 

This mom acts like she is a bad example of a  SM, PL, and SPL all rolled into one.

She is a proud feminist and is quick to throw the "IF MOMMY IS NOT HAPPY THEN NOBODY IS HAPPY!" card your way, and she acted like she was everyone's mommy.  If you say the slightest thing might softly question one of here wishes, she will start crying and then get angry.

The troop was doomed and the boys walked away,  nobody could do anything.  The troop dropped to just 6 boys. 

She was hiding behind the fact that she was a woman to get her way.  If you say anything, you are a horrible women hating sexist toxic male pig. . .

I do not know of any way to deal with any woman that is using this tactic to get her way.   There are many women like her in my district and their numbers are increasing.

 

But hey...she's woodbadge trained 😁 Wonder what her critter is (was??)

Full disclaimer..never attended WB nor do I plan to.  There is likely some good to it, but see waaay too many adults who basically treat the WB experience, staffing, course personage as their contribution to the scouting program when if fact they have not camped with a troop or met an actual scout in years and basically are part of this adult cult of the pink hankie.  WB does not make you a scouter.  Leading youth in a challenging program and helping them along their journey as you work with them on the trails, in the rain, in the cold, in emergency situations, in trying times, and in a variety of situations to be productive adults, that's what makes you a scout leader.  No special knot or tartan scarf needed.

 

[Thunderbird]

@cocomax  Um, wow!  😮

[qwazse]

22 minutes ago, cocomax said:

...

She is a proud feminist and is quick to throw the "IF MOMMY IS NOT HAPPY THEN NOBODY IS HAPPY!" card your way, and she acted like she was everyone's mommy.  If you say the slightest thing might softly question one of here wishes, she will start crying and then get angry.

The troop was doomed and the boys walked away,  nobody could do anything.  The troop dropped to just 6 boys. 

She was hiding behind the fact that she was a woman to get her way.  If you say anything, you are a horrible women hating sexist toxic male pig. . .

I do not know of any way to deal with any woman that is using this tactic to get her way.   There are many women like her in my district and their numbers are increasing.

It's like my relatives' (ex)troop has an evil twin. FWIW, I've seen this happen with male leaders as well.

For all our leadership's faults, when my crew took the troop on hikes that crushed half of the adults (but the boys loved), those men sobered up and either stepped out of our way or did what it took to get in shape. In the process, I got one really good scout mom who the boys loved to hike with.

But, I am aware that for other troops it can go quite differently. The only way to stop it, as far as I can tell, is to identify a YPT violation (which is likely to happen with these types of leaders leaders), and report it to the SE.

[Eagledad]

This was predicted on the forum back when the discussion of girls started.

Sexism has been used on this forum lately when the discussion of females comes up. I don't think it's malicious either, I think they really believe it. The traditional program is so foreign to their perspective, the opposition must be personal. 

As the larger numbers of strong personalities with no youth scouting experience join, programs will change toward the vision of those leaders instead of the goals and vision of the BSA. It's a natural result. In the past, the BSA had enough experienced scouters to resist most of these types of adults. But it is quickly shifting. 

Barry 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Eagledad

[cocomax]

This mom was given a district level leadership position.   I have seen her decide to have a important meeting, to discuss future district events with only a 2 hour notice and then the next day berate and attack everyone on facebook for not showing up.   .  .   She was also the one that organized and canceled the last 4 district camp-o-rees on the day of the event for strange reasons, like canceling the event for "weather" when the temps are 80 high and 50 low at night, no wind, no rain, no smoke and clear.

I am not sure why she has so much power at the district, her doings have run off many good women and men scouters. Maybe the only ones left at district level are afraid of her, or just don't care anymore.   

[malraux]

7 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

This was predicted on the forum back when the discussion of girls started.

Sexism has been used on this forum lately when the discussion of females comes up. I don't think it's malicious either, I think they really believe it. The traditional program is so foreign to their perspective, the opposition must be personal. 

As the larger numbers of strong personalities with no youth scouting experience join, programs will change toward the vision of those leaders instead of the goals and vision of the BSA. It's a natural result. In the past, the BSA had enough experienced scouters to resist most of these types of adults. But it is quickly shifting. 

Barry 

But this doesn’t seem like a recent development …

[Saltface]

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

But hey...she's woodbadge trained 😁 Wonder what her critter is (was??)

Full disclaimer..never attended WB nor do I plan to.  There is likely some good to it, but see waaay too many adults who basically treat the WB experience, staffing, course personage as their contribution to the scouting program when if fact they have not camped with a troop or met an actual scout in years and basically are part of this adult cult of the pink hankie.  WB does not make you a scouter.  Leading youth in a challenging program and helping them along their journey as you work with them on the trails, in the rain, in the cold, in emergency situations, in trying times, and in a variety of situations to be productive adults, that's what makes you a scout leader.  No special knot or tartan scarf needed.

Wood Badge is the Family Life MB of adult training. It's too much information for someone in their first year of Scouting and not enough useful information for someone in their fifth year.

2 minutes ago, cocomax said:

This mom was given a district level leadership position.

Naturally.

[Jameson76]

3 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Wood Badge is the Family Life MB of adult training. It's too much information for someone in their first year of Scouting and not enough useful information for someone in their fifth year.

I am going to so steal that analogy....

[cocomax]

Bad male scouters and scouts I can deal with very easily. 

When dealing with very bad female scouters I do not know what to do, maybe I am just not brave enough to face that storm of emotion and anger.  My first instinct is to RUN. One false accusation from a angry female and your life as you know it is OVER.  

 

[Eagledad]

5 minutes ago, cocomax said:

Bad male scouters and scouts I can deal with very easily. 

When dealing with very bad female scouters I do not know what to do, maybe I am just not brave enough to face that storm of emotion and anger.  My first instinct is to RUN. One false accusation from a angry female and your life as you know it is OVER.  

 

I think it's how our wives have trained us.

Barry

[ParkMan]

We seem to have lots of these posts.  Some parent showed up at a troop, didn't understand Scouting, took over, and ruined it all.  Sometimes folks try to associate that with women - but not always.  

The common thread I see in these is a troop that can't seem to figure out how to rally around a defined program and channel adult energy accordingly.  It has nothing to do with male vs. female.  At the unit level, the failing is in understanding that organizing adult energy and having a defined culture is something you have to work at. 

At a national level, I'd argue that we've missed the boat on preparing adults to lead programs.  We focus on so much on SM training around Scout skills that we've neglected those skills you need to deploy a program.