Scouting Magazine - betting the farm on girls

[Chris1]

7 hours ago, gblotter said:

... Family Scouting is not about offering a traditional Scouting program to girls.

I know quite a number of girls who will be ticked off if they don't get the same patrol-method, traditional program the boys get.

[gblotter]

10 hours ago, Chris1 said:

I know quite a number of girls who will be ticked off if they don't get the same patrol-method, traditional program the boys get.

During this entire discussion with my father-in-law, I kept reminding him that national leadership was in such a rush to announce a BSA4G program that had not even been defined. This wasn't half-baked - it wasn't even in the oven yet. All they could say about the new program was "trust us, it will be wonderful". Why do it like this? BSA National has acted with an urgent disorganization that speaks of desperation. The fact that they are talking out of both sides of their mouth about Family Scouting and the integration of girls is only further evidence. Even now - 6 months out - confused messages emerge from those involved with these inside conversations. Is the Family Scouting program even the same thing as the Scouts BSA girl program? - I'm not convinced that it is. These bumblers in Irving are making this up as they go along. My father-in-law is only relaying his interpretation of a program that still being formulated (with less than 6 months before rollout). Nothing in this process inspires confidence.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I may well be wrong on this point), but nowhere has BSA National leadership said that the Scouts BSA program will not change in order to integrate girls. They have never said that the traditional Scouting program will be preserved in Scouts BSA. They have only said that the path to Eagle will be the same for boys and girls.

[RememberSchiff]

There are multiple discussions ...time to separate. 

Here is one spilt.

and the other (suggested by @ParkMan  and @Eagledad I believe)

Thank you for your patience.  Sequencing errors are probably my fault. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[LVAllen]

3 hours ago, gblotter said:

During this entire discussion with my father-in-law, I kept reminding him that national leadership was in such a rush to announce a BSA4G program that had not even been defined. This wasn't half-baked - it wasn't even in the oven yet. All they could say about the new program was "trust us, it will be wonderful". Why do it like this? BSA National has acted with an urgent disorganization that speaks of desperation. The fact that they are talking out of both sides of their mouth about Family Scouting and the integration of girls is only further evidence. Even now - 6 months out - confused messages emerge from those involved with these inside conversations. Is the Family Scouting program even the same thing as the Scouts BSA girl program? - I'm not convinced that it is. These bumblers in Irving are making this up as they go along. My father-in-law is only relaying his interpretation of a program that still being formulated (with less than 6 months before rollout). Nothing in this process inspires confidence.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I may well be wrong on this point), but nowhere has BSA National leadership said that the Scouts BSA program will not change in order to integrate girls. They have never said that the traditional Scouting program will be preserved in Scouts BSA. They have only said that the path to Eagle will be the same for boys and girls.

"Q. Will you change the program to accommodate girls?  

Our existing programs are relevant for both young men and women. After all, the values of Scouting as outlined in the Scout Law – trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent – are relevant and important values for both young men and women. As such, the program for girls, ages 11 to 17 will be the same curriculum offered in the Boy Scout program."

[Oldscout448]

25 minutes ago, LVAllen said:

"Q. Will you change the program to accommodate girls?  

Our existing programs are relevant for both young men and women. After all, the values of Scouting as outlined in the Scout Law – trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent – are relevant and important values for both young men and women. As such, the program for girls, ages 11 to 17 will be the same curriculum offered in the Boy Scout program."

OK so the program will be the same for both sexes.   But will it be the same as it is now?  or radically changed ? 

[HelpfulTracks]

5 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

OK so the program will be the same for both sexes.   But will it be the same as it is now?  or radically changed ? 

I guess it depends on what you mean when you say program.

If you mean the AIMs and Methods (camping, advancement, leadership et. al) I don't think it will change much.

If you mean moving to coed troops rather than single gender, I doubt that will change either. But it appears people who are much better at seeing into the future than me, already know that coed is a done deal. So if they are right, then that is a radical change.

What I cannot understand is this, if someone is a supporter of keeping troops single gender, as I am, then why not stick around and work to keep it that way. Leaving Scouting to those that want coed, because you fear it will go coed, seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy.

[FireStone]

On 9/8/2018 at 2:04 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

...If you mean moving to coed troops rather than single gender, I doubt that will change either. But it appears people who are much better at seeing into the future than me, already know that coed is a done deal. So if they are right, then that is a radical change...

My gut feeling on this so far has been that we're moving to something that more closely resembles UK scouting. So going fully coed is part of that, and I suspect it has always been the BSA plan. But to make the move a bit easier to swallow, they are doing this transitional separated troops/packs/dens thing. 

I don't have a crystal ball, but my expectation of the future of the BSA is we're fully coed within a decade. 

[Jameson76]

16 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I don't have a crystal ball, but my expectation of the future of the BSA is we're fully coed within a decade. 

I'll take the under on that bet / expectation.  Rather than 10 years, there will be "survey" and "groundswell of support" sometime in 2020 / 21 and we will be coed.  

The challenge will be ramping up any actual functioning girl troops or enough "linked" (wink wink) troops.  BSA will need to decide how to effectively provide a good program and opportunity for the the girls coming out of cubs.  Honestly it takes a minute to stand up a troop and get the institutional knowledge to have a well functioning troop.  

There may be some Girl troops and they will be new, then they will look over at the established boy troops in the same area with 11 outings annually, maybe 2 summer camps, high adventure, 30+ years of tradition, 10 Eagles a year etc etc.  Why can't they have that now, it's not fair, yada yada.  Not saying the requirement (though it might be) will be for troops to be coed, but it will be an option.  Boy Troops, Girl Troops, Coed Troops will be the three flavors.

Might be a hard sell to mandate coed for many years, though likely that is the way Boys Scouts...sorry Scouts BSA will be moving.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Jameson76

[walk in the woods]

51 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I'll take the under on that bet / expectation.  Rather than 10 years, there will be "survey" and "groundswell of support" sometime in 2020 / 21 and we will be coed.  

Yeah, I'll take the under on that as well.  My money is on the NAM in 2020.  "We've heard from the field and from concerned parents that the current linked troop structure isn't working.  Girls don't have troops to cross over to, etc."  It will be local option at that point.  Another 5 years from there to mandatory.

[Thunderbird]

On 9/8/2018 at 11:04 AM, HelpfulTracks said:

I guess it depends on what you mean when you say program.

If you mean the AIMs and Methods (camping, advancement, leadership et. al) I don't think it will change much.

If you mean moving to coed troops rather than single gender, I doubt that will change either. But it appears people who are much better at seeing into the future than me, already know that coed is a done deal. So if they are right, then that is a radical change.

What I cannot understand is this, if someone is a supporter of keeping troops single gender, as I am, then why not stick around and work to keep it that way. Leaving Scouting to those that want coed, because you fear it will go coed, seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

They have telegraphed what they are planning to do by putting girls in the Boy Scouting program and renaming the program "Scouts BSA".  There will be a push for co-ed troops, because it will be difficult for some troops to get the minimum number of girls that they need (5) in order to start a girl troop.  The argument will be that it isn't "fair" for these girls to not be able to join a troop and pursue Eagle Scout just because they couldn't get enough other girls to join, too.

Scouts BSA will probably have co-ed troops, girl troops, and boy troops (as determined by their charter organization) in about 2-4 years.  Mandatory co-ed troops will take longer (if at all - there isn't as much demand).  As I understand it, Venturing Crews can be all girl, all boy, or co-ed, and people seem to be happy with having these options.

[HashTagScouts]

21 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

 

They have telegraphed what they are planning to do by putting girls in the Boy Scouting program and renaming the program "Scouts BSA".  There will be a push for co-ed troops, because it will be difficult for some troops to get the minimum number of girls that they need (5) in order to start a girl troop.  The argument will be that it isn't "fair" for these girls to not be able to join a troop and pursue Eagle Scout just because they couldn't get enough other girls to join, too.

Scouts BSA will probably have co-ed troops, girl troops, and boy troops (as determined by their charter organization) in about 2-4 years.  Mandatory co-ed troops will take longer (if at all - there isn't as much demand).  As I understand it, Venturing Crews can be all girl, all boy, or co-ed, and people seem to be happy with having these options.

If we take some of the commentary from various persons on the professional side, they cite that coed was happening anyway on the cub side, just not "officially".   It's also happening on the Boy Scout side too, just not "officially".  There are Troops today that charter Crews, and have the Crew right there at each meeting and each event.  Just because you can't give an official transcript for an award doesn't mean the program isn't operating coed.  The only thing that really changes is now you can actually charter the girls earlier than age 14.  My feelings all along is that National was taking a "can't beat 'em, join 'em" stance with this membership change, so don't see how we could be surprised if they don't do the same by just throwing that additional "local option" out there.   The "linked troop" was already a step in the direction of trying to ensure that there are sufficient girl troops ready come spring for any girls ready to come out of Cubs- nothing would make National look worse than negative publicity if even one girl gives a reporter a story about how the BSA got them all amped up only to let them down a year later. 

    

[Thunderbird]

Charter organizations can already charter more than one pack, troop, etc., so IMO, the whole "linked troop" is just a way for them to say that the program isn't co-ed (yet) *wink*.

[ValleyBoy]

Our Charter organization at this time charter a troop and is in the process of chartering a coed pack.  The discussion has taken place about starting a "linked troop" but the 2 troops even thought they could meet at the same time and place will not meet together. 

[gblotter]

Duplicate post.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by gblotter

[gblotter]

1 hour ago, Thunderbird said:

Scouts BSA will probably have co-ed troops, girl troops, and boy troops (as determined by their charter organization) in about 2-4 years.

@Thunderbird  After the LDS exit on 12/31/19, the biggest block of support for single-gender Scouting will be gone, so I agree with your predicted timing.

 

On 9/8/2018 at 11:04 AM, HelpfulTracks said:

What I cannot understand is this, if someone is a supporter of keeping troops single gender, as I am, then why not stick around and work to keep it that way.

@HelpfulTracks  Whenever folks mention single-gender troops, I feel they've missed the point. I support a single-gender *program*.

I do not oppose girls in Scouting. For 100+ years, there has been a wonderful Scouting program tailored to the unique needs of girls (it's called GSUSA, and all three of my daughters have participated in it).

What I oppose is the loss of that wonderful Scouting program (formerly known as Boy Scouts) which for 100+ years was tailored to the unique needs of boys. That program will be gone in February 2019. For all troops (boy, girl, linked), the new Scouts BSA program will be gender-neutral. Ignoring and dismissing the reality that boys and girls behave differently, learn, differently, and develop differently (especially at these ages). Every BSA program will be co-ed. Every BSA event - at the district, council, and national level - will be co-ed. Tell me again how BSA is not going co-ed?

Sadly, the battle to preserve a single-gender Scouting program tailored to the unique needs of boys is already lost. Stick around and fight? The dishonest and manipulative process used to justify the inclusion of girls proves that the motivations of BSA National are far more powerful than any resistance from local volunteers like me. I'm worn out from fighting to preserve a beloved Scouting program that BSA National leadership is determined to transform. That is why I will not be sticking around.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by gblotter