Scouting Magazine - betting the farm on girls

[malraux]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:12 PM, gblotter said:

If Surbaugh wanted to be honest (not lie), he could at least acknowledge that this was a divisive decision driven by declining membership rather than hiding behind an insulting and manipulative survey. Wouldn't some honest discussion coming from the top be refreshing for a change?

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To what end? Sure, some people get to vent at Surbaugh directly, but does that help improve the implementation? Is the hope to get him to change his mind? Would that really help retain any members that are leaving because of this, or help attract new members?

[gblotter]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:16 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

Am I justified if the my district and council's internal data shows popular support

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Show me your data - happy to see it.

[gblotter]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:18 PM, malraux said:

Would that really help retain any members that are leaving because of this, or help attract new members?

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I actually do believe that some honesty from Surbaugh would help with retention and recruiting. Resentment grows when people feel they are being manipulated. Understanding grows with honest communication.

[HelpfulTracks]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:12 PM, gblotter said:

If Surbaugh wanted to be honest (not lie), he could at least acknowledge that this was a divisive decision driven by declining membership rather than hiding behind an insulting and manipulative survey. Wouldn't some honest discussion coming from the top be refreshing for a change?

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That's the point, of all the people I argued with in opposition to girls being in Scouting, not one, ever, said we needed change to stem declining numbers. To a person it was about giving girls the same chance that boys have in Scouting. Something they were not getting elsewhere.

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:12 PM, gblotter said:

If Surbaugh wanted to be honest (not lie), he could at least acknowledge that this was a divisive decision driven by declining membership rather than hiding behind an insulting and manipulative survey. Wouldn't some honest discussion coming from the top be refreshing for a change?

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That's the point, of all the people I argued with in opposition to girls being in Scouting, not one, ever, said we needed change to stem declining numbers. To a person it was about giving girls the same chance that boys have in Scouting. Something they were not getting elsewhere.

[gblotter]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:16 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

even on this board it is the same few that are opposed.

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Even on this board, it is the same few that are in support. This is not a terribly active board - the same people are posting most of the time.

[HelpfulTracks]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:18 PM, gblotter said:

Show me your data - happy to see it.

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Gladly, you show me yours and I will show you mine.

DO I need to go back and pull copies of the hand written forms or would aggregated date be sufficient? Or would I just be called a liar because you don't agree with my results?

Edited August 29, 2018 by HelpfulTracks

[gblotter]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:20 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

not one, ever, said we needed change to stem declining numbers.

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Isn't it Surbaugh's job to make that case?

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:22 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

Gladly, you show me yours and I will show you mine.

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I'm afraid that would violate YPT - lol.

[FireStone]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:16 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

I disagree with National on a many issues, and at times I think they could screw just about anything up, but as a Scouter, I am beyond frustrated with Scouters calling people liars based off supposition, personal bias and no evidence.

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This. All day. Yes. 👍🏼

[Saltface]

  On 8/29/2018 at 2:43 PM, malraux said:

there are times when I feel like the point of this forum is for people to complain.

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This is correct. What gives me the creeps are the rah-rah cheerleaders who wholeheartedly endorse anything National says (usually on Facebook).

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:09 PM, FireStone said:

That's just not true. It's a popular opinion that girls should be in Scouting. How popular? I don't know. But it's not some small fringe group.

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It's definitely no fringe group, but if BSA could prove even a simple majority of supporters in BSA4G with the results of the internal survey, they would be trumpeting it. Instead we get to endure celebrity endorsements (OMGosh, Ashton Kutcher!!!), erstwhile martinets ignoring a very big rule about how the program is to be implemented, and a never-ending drumbeat from BSA about how great this is.

And I've never finished an issue of Scouting Magazine that fast.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Saltface

[HelpfulTracks]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:29 PM, Saltface said:

It's definitely no fringe group, but if BSA could prove even a simple majority of supporters in BSA4G with the results of the internal survey, they would be trumpeting it.

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If I had to guess the Likert Scale on this topic probably showed a plurality for and against, with a number of people in the middle with no opinion. That is fairly typical.

I would also imagine that the strongly disagreed made up a larger portion of those opposed, than strongly agreed made up those for. Again, fairly typical that strongest reaction comes from one side in these surveys.

[TMSM]

Looking at the definition the word popular - can mean liked by many. This means its not a majority and many os one those marketing words that can mean more than 1. Lets be honest that a majority of scouters and scouts (boys) hate this idea of letting the girls in this part of scouting. All of us who have been around for a while see what has already started which is a change in the program and can't wait to get out and know that for the 10,000 girls we add we will have 100,000 unhappy boys.

[ParkMan]

  On 8/29/2018 at 2:51 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

Calling it a minority does not make it so.

I was frustrated for a while feeling like I was in the minority when I opposed girls in Scouting. My experience is like that of FireStone's, most people I see are supporting it.

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That's what I see too.  Whether it's the number of packs recruiting girls, the discussions in the troop committee, or discussions in the district committee, the outward indications are that most people in my area are in support of it. 

[RememberSchiff]

I would say most people in my area are in agreement with it, whether they sign up as adult leaders and support  remains to be seen.  

[Saltface]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:39 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

If I had to guess the Likert Scale on this topic probably showed a plurality for and against, with a number of people in the middle with no opinion. That is fairly typical.

I would also imagine that the strongly disagreed made up a larger portion of those opposed, than strongly agreed made up those for. Again, fairly typical that strongest reaction comes from one side in these surveys.

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I see what you're saying. Thank you.

How would I say this then? The pH is acidic?

Edited August 29, 2018 by Saltface

[FireStone]

  On 8/29/2018 at 3:39 PM, TMSM said:

Lets be honest that a majority of scouters and scouts (boys) hate this idea of letting the girls in this part of scouting. All of us who have been around for a while see what has already started which is a change in the program and can't wait to get out and know that for the 10,000 girls we add we will have 100,000 unhappy boys.

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Pure speculation. And yet this is exactly the kind of thing that people are hanging their hats on when saying that some "majority" thinks one thing or another. 

Can we at least stop with the idea that any one of us knows what the majority believes?