New Cubmaster with a co-ed pack

[Ranman328]

8 hours ago, nateisen said:

Of course i asked the parents!  They think it is ridiculous to keep this one girl in a den by herself.  The only other girls that joined were Tigers, so it makes even less sense to put her in a mixed-rank den.  I am actually over the top with communication to my parents.  I am just here looking for guidance outside my own pack and council, whom I also asked about all this.  This whole discussion is about how I can meet National guidelines and still allow this girl to have a full scouting experience.

The only advice I would give is make sure you follow YPT rules and have all the correct trained leaders in place to cover yourself if you are going to go against National Policy.  It is my experience that BSA will run the other way if they can and not support or cover volunteer leaders if they don't have to.  I'm not trying to be a downer but I just lost a great ASM with over 40 years of BSA experience over a false accusation.  BSA ran as fast as they could the first chance they got when they thought YPT was not followed.  Cover yourself while at the same time trying to provide a great program for the kids.  Good Luck and welcome aboard 

[Eagle1993]

8 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

The only advice I would give is make sure you follow YPT rules and have all the correct trained leaders in place to cover yourself if you are going to go against National Policy.  It is my experience that BSA will run the other way if they can and not support or cover volunteer leaders if they don't have to.  I'm not trying to be a downer but I just lost a great ASM with over 40 years of BSA experience over a false accusation.  BSA ran as fast as they could the first chance they got when they thought YPT was not followed.  Cover yourself while at the same time trying to provide a great program for the kids.  Good Luck and welcome aboard 

What policy are they violating?  National FAQs state boy and girl dens can meet together.  I do agree the must follow YPT.  It will be easier to follow with combined den meetings.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Eagle1993
Added YPT comment

[ParkMan]

7 hours ago, qwazse said:

Life's tough as a pioneer!

Brilliantly said!

[Ranman328]

4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

What policy are they violating?  National FAQs state boy and girl dens can meet together.  I do agree the must follow YPT.  It will be easier to follow with combined den meetings.

I do believe the policy is NO coed Dens.  They are either Boy Dens or Girl Dens.  You have obviously read the policy as you clearly state boy and girl dens not mixed Dens.  As a Volunteer who just watched a 40 year Scouter spend several thousand dollars of his own money and be forced to retire from a government job while defending himself which he did from a false accusation, I am just passing along information that if you choose to run your Pack, Troop, Crew or whatever contrary to BSA guidelines, you are on your own.  I watched BSA abandon a man the first chance they got.  Be careful is I am saying.  Perception is everything and if someone even thinks they perceive something unusual, they will raise a stink.  

[The Latin Scot]

I concur; the simple fact is that boys and girls are supposed to meet in separate dens. That is one policy you cannot, nor should you even attempt to, get around. I would rather work with one stalwart kid alone in a den than try to bend the rules to facilitate what I think is best - or most convenient, as is more often the real case. Mind you, I have often had periods of time when I only had one kid in my Webelos den - other leaders tried to get me to combine with other groups for the duration, but I have learned something extremely valuable in my years working with children and specializing in child development:

To a 9 year-old, a 10 year-old is a BIG kid and can be intimidating, and more often than not they retreat emotionally or physically to "make way" for the older child to run the show.

To an 8 year-old, a 7 year-old can be an obstacle because they are "too little" to be any fun, slowing things down and frustrating their progress.

To an elementary-aged boy, a girl can affect how comfortable he is investing himself entirely in certain activities, and she may be the source of some embarrassment during normal work or play.

To an elementary-aged girl, a boy can ruin the fun of an activity or project by not being focused, slowing down instruction, and being a distraction to both peers and leaders.

ALSO: The effects of mixing genders are more dramatic than the effects of mixing ages.

Et cetera.

It is far better for the child to get some personal attention as the only pioneer member in their den (and start RECRUITING for pete's sake!) than it is to try and force-combine dens across ages or genders simply because of how ADULTS perceive the degree of inconvenience. Stop thinking about what YOU think is best, and look at the situation through the eyes of the child. Don't think that what is easiest is best; what is best is what allows the child the broadest degree of developmental comfort, freedom, and attention. That will be found with other children who are the same age, and the same gender.

Edited August 30, 2018 by The Latin Scot

[Eagle1993]

I see no violation if you coordinate den meetings... see the FAQ below.  The only ask by my council when I followed up is that the girls and boys should have some aspect of the meeting separate (for example if there are subgroups or teams the girls are on one).  

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FAQ-Family-Program-061218-FINAL.pdf

Q: Should dens for girls and dens for boys meet at the same time and place?
It is up to the chartered organization and the pack or the den to decide meeting times and places.
Q: Can separate boy and girl dens work on the same activity at the same time together?
There is no set rule or guideline on this. If appropriate, this can be treated the same as two dens of the same gender working together. It will be up to the good judgement of leaders to decide what is best for their units.

I don’t see a violation given these clarifications.

 

As far as harming youth for our convenience.....

My wife has worked (and is working) for private all girls schools and we have friends that work for a private all boys school.  After our experiences we have all chosen to send our kids to coed schools.  I don’t disagree that there are benefits but there are also issues in those schools and some negative impacts and on net we believe a coed experience in school is more beneficial.  I see the same with scouting.  

[Ranman328]

32 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I see no violation if you coordinate den meetings... see the FAQ below.  The only ask by my council when I followed up is that the girls and boys should have some aspect of the meeting separate (for example if there are subgroups or teams the girls are on one).  

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FAQ-Family-Program-061218-FINAL.pdf

Q: Should dens for girls and dens for boys meet at the same time and place?
It is up to the chartered organization and the pack or the den to decide meeting times and places.
Q: Can separate boy and girl dens work on the same activity at the same time together?
There is no set rule or guideline on this. If appropriate, this can be treated the same as two dens of the same gender working together. It will be up to the good judgement of leaders to decide what is best for their units.

I don’t see a violation given these clarifications.

 

As far as harming youth for our convenience.....

My wife has worked (and is working) for private all girls schools and we have friends that work for a private all boys school.  After our experiences we have all chosen to send our kids to coed schools.  I don’t disagree that there are benefits but there are also issues in those schools and some negative impacts and on net we believe a coed experience in school is more beneficial.  I see the same with scouting.  

I understand what you are saying but that is not what is going on here.  They are talking about just putting this girl in the Den with the boys and calling it a day.  It is not a separate meeting area, it will be a coed Den,. That is a against the guidelines according to what BSA put out.  I have no problem with joint Pack meetings or even the occasional group get together if they are all working on the same requirement but not making one big group.  I haven't even heard if they have female leaders in place for this girl to even be in that Den. That is another issue in itself.  

The more I think about it, I would just follow the guidance they have already put out.

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

I understand what you are saying but that is not what is going on here.  They are talking about just putting this girl in the Den with the boys and calling it a day.  It is not a separate meeting area, it will be a coed Den,. That is a against the guidelines according to what BSA put out.  I have no problem with joint Pack meetings or even the occasional group get together if they are all working on the same requirement but not making one big group.

The guideline, what the BSA put out, again in bold ...

Q: Should dens for girls and dens for boys meet at the same time and place?
It is up to the chartered organization and the pack or the den to decide meeting times and places.

The CM should follow it.

This means if the COR says "Don't be ridiculous, Bear Den 1 and She-Bear Den 2 have room A from 6-7PM 1st and 2nd Mondays. Let us know when those two dens need more space." That's what the CM should do.

If the COR says "At all cost, keep that corrupting influence of a she-bear away from those boys." That's what the CM should do.

If the COR says "Listen to our parents. Support them." That's what the CM should do.

If the COR says "Ask strangers on the internet, do what they say." Get a new COR!

The cold hard truth is that BSA has offered no specific advice about what to do when you get one girl two grades apart from all others. (Or, even, when you get one boy two grades apart from all others in a Pack that initially started for girls.)

2 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

...  I haven't even heard if they have female leaders in place for this girl to even be in that Den. That is another issue in itself.  ...

We haven't heard a lot of things. We have heard that parents believe it's ridiculous to separate the she-bear from her male buddies. I could be wrong, but those sound like parents who will proffer up the token trained, registered, female adult when asked. Pardon, me if I'm making a molehill out of a mountain.

[an_old_DC]

@nateisenThere has been a lot of feedback in this thread. Some good, and some, well, wrong. For example, parents don't "get" to make decisions about pack organization or structure. 

Do yourself a favor: call your local council and ask for the Scout Executive. Tell him or her your situation and ask for professional guidance. He or she will tell you how the council is handling girls in Cub Scouts.

 

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, an_old_DC said:

... For example, parents don't "get" to make decisions about pack organization or structure. ...

Fine point. Any parent can voice an opinion. They often do. Parents who want to be "in" on such decisions should talk to the CC and COR about applying to the committee, it'll only cost them an "hour a month."

My general experience: if you ask a "how to" question when National hasn't put in writing how to handle a particular paradox, your SE is going to make up something on the fly. Instead, I would call the SE and ask for the numbers of any CM's who have only one scout of one particular age and one particular sex on their Pack roster. I'd say I want to find out how they configure their dens because the documentation sounds like it's giving me latitude while making me feel like I'm walking on eggshells.

A good SE will offer to arrange a conference call for you all. This, "special case roundtable" is more likely to come up with strategies that actually help your packs. It's also more likely to get DE's marketing in your neighborhoods.

[Ranman328]

8 hours ago, qwazse said:

The guideline, what the BSA put out, again in bold ...

Q: Should dens for girls and dens for boys meet at the same time and place?
It is up to the chartered organization and the pack or the den to decide meeting times and places.

The CM should follow it.

This means if the COR says "Don't be ridiculous, Bear Den 1 and She-Bear Den 2 have room A from 6-7PM 1st and 2nd Mondays. Let us know when those two dens need more space." That's what the CM should do.

If the COR says "At all cost, keep that corrupting influence of a she-bear away from those boys." That's what the CM should do.

If the COR says "Listen to our parents. Support them." That's what the CM should do.

If the COR says "Ask strangers on the internet, do what they say." Get a new COR!

The cold hard truth is that BSA has offered no specific advice about what to do when you get one girl two grades apart from all others. (Or, even, when you get one boy two grades apart from all others in a Pack that initially started for girls.)

We haven't heard a lot of things. We have heard that parents believe it's ridiculous to separate the she-bear from her male buddies. I could be wrong, but those sound like parents who will proffer up the token trained, registered, female adult when asked. Pardon, me if I'm making a molehill out of a mountain.

@qwazse I don't see anywhere in your bold writings above where it says anything about BSA allowing COED DENS?????  I have said all along that BSA says they can meet at the same time and place in a group setting all they want.  What I am saying is they can not meet as a coed Den.  IMO, before any girl Dens are set up, there should be the correct "Trained" leadership in place to get the girls going.  No one should be waiting until after the fact.  According to the guidelines, they need to have a trained female leader at all events.

[qwazse]

4 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

@qwazse I don't see anywhere in your bold writings above where it says anything about BSA allowing COED DENS?????  I have said all along that BSA says they can meet at the same time and place in a group setting all they want.  What I am saying is they can not meet as a coed Den.  IMO, before any girl Dens are set up, there should be the correct "Trained" leadership in place to get the girls going.  No one should be waiting until after the fact.  According to the guidelines, they need to have a trained female leader at all events.

Here's the disconnect: BSA has never been in the den assignment business. The whole tiger, bear, wolf, Webelos thing, for example, was never set in stone. If you were short in two grades, you could combine them ... you registered an adult leader to be DL, and found him or her an assistant. National got a list of adults, a list of youth, and never bothered mapping youth to leaders. That was strictly the domain of the pack.

BSA is making clear that, even though it prefers otherwise, should a CO, the pack, and the den see fit, a girl den of any size and a boy den of any size may share time and space for any or all intents and purposes.  That way they can still, maintain that their program is not co-Ed while still allowing COs who believe in that sort of thing  leeway.

Regarding training, our council has a pro whose sole job is to get family scouting rooted wherever a shoot is sprouting. I think she can call down a trainer to any pack the day they tell her "It's just guys running our pack, and these girls knocked at our door." Most packs around here have trained female DLs and ACMs. But on top of that, our council has been bring trained females online in each district in case they need to stop-gap.

[Snow Owl]

I would love to see a survey of how the packs are actually implementing the girl/boy dens.  My suspicion is many are doing separate dens on paper only. 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by Snow Owl

[Saltface]

3 hours ago, Snow Owl said:

I would love to see a survey of how the packs are actually implementing the girl/boy dens.  My suspicion is many are doing separate dens on paper only. 

 

 

I would replace many with most.