Scouts BSA Handbook for Girls?

[Ranman328]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Really??!?!?  Are you serious?  If they changed the Boy Scout book to add some pictures of girls and changed some pronouns you would have went nuts claiming they “changed the program”.  They are adding a girls book with picture of girls and adding “she” instead of “he”.  They did this in a separate book so they don’t upset the existing boys and their leaders... and that is now an issue?   WOW!  

Perhaps we need to add trigger warnings to any BSA announcements going forward so existing leaders can go to their safe spaces prior to hearing such things like there is a scouts BSA book with pictures of girls or uniform pants that come out and are sized for girls. Oh, the humanity! 😀

There is a lot to complain about but having a separate book (as long as gender is the only delta) makes sense given how they are introducing the program as non coed.

Kind of a harsh response don't you think?  My question would be, did BSA do the same thing for each Cub Scout Rank as well as the Venture Crew?  If not, why?  How much money was spent on the making of two books.  Now all those complaints about BSA raising membership fees to pay for the girl program are valid, don't you think?  I think people are getting upset that everything BSA said would not happen is now happening.  Sad times we are in.

[RememberSchiff]

Or perhaps just variant covers of same content?

[Eagle1993]

26 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

Kind of a harsh response don't you think?  My question would be, did BSA do the same thing for each Cub Scout Rank as well as the Venture Crew?  If not, why?  How much money was spent on the making of two books.  Now all those complaints about BSA raising membership fees to pay for the girl program are valid, don't you think?  I think people are getting upset that everything BSA said would not happen is now happening.  Sad times we are in.

Venturing crews can be coed.  There were complaints about the coed Cub Scout rank books were release that boy only packs now have books with girls. Now National releases a separate books and more griping.  How much money on a book... hardly anything vs the dues of the girls coming in.

[Eagle1993]

46 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I am very serious.  

The messaging concerning Boy Scouts (AKA Scouts BSA)  has been IDENTICAL programs, no changes to the program, the same program for all, etc etc.   Step on up and get your Eagle.  Now there are in fact two handbooks, a Girls Handbook and a Boys Handbook.  One would assume actually 4 handbooks, 2 for Girls English and Spanish and 2 for Boys English and Spanish.

What message does that send?  Basically subliminally telegraphing that there are in fact differences.  There probably are not any other than the photos, but is that in fact the case (one would hope that is the case).  Again, even another botched message from the tone deaf crowd at National.

No.  Nope. Sorry, wrong. The book is filled with gender pronouns and pictures of boys.  Having a book in a different language or pictures of girls doesn’t change the program. If you show me that the girl book or the Spanish book has different requirements then you can make this point. 

[Ranman328]

Just now, Eagle1993 said:

Venturing crews can be coed.  There were complaints about the coed Cub Scout rank books were release that boy only packs now have books with girls. Now National releases a separate books and more griping.  How much money on a book... hardly anything vs the dues of the girls coming in.

No one said anything about coed did they?  Do they have separate books?  I haven't heard any complaints about coed Cub Scout Books.  I think you should look up how much money was raised just last year raising membership fees.  BSA made an additional $33 million dollars last year with the $9 increase in fees.  If you don't think a significant chunk of that went to the girl program and new book design then you are not being honest.  Currently there are only 10,000 girls signed up.  In my district, we do not have a single girl registered. 

[Hawkwin]

24 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Or perhaps just variant covers of same content?

 

Yep, and likely no different than this:

 

https://www.scoutshop.org/wolf-handbook-spanish-edition-620135.html

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

No.  Nope. Sorry, wrong. The book is filled with gender pronouns and pictures of boys.  Having a book in a different language or pictures of girls doesn’t change the program. If you show me that the girl book or the Spanish book has different requirements then you can make this point. 

My comment was on the messaging and the actual mismanagement and continued mishandling of the program changes messaging.  Likely, at this point, they are identical, never said they were not. 

There are issues with the tenure and tone of the program changes

• The original Oct 17 rollout specifically noted separate troops, then 30 - 60 days later linked troops was an option
• National rolls out updated YPT and sets a different standard for girls and leaders than boys in that if there are girls then there must be a female YPT leader.  No such gender specific requirement if there are boys at an activity
• Summer 2018 there are two specific handbooks denoted by gender

 

[Chris1]

42 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

My comment was on the messaging and the actual mismanagement and continued mishandling of the program changes messaging.  Likely, at this point, they are identical, never said they were not. 

There are issues with the tenure and tone of the program changes

• The original Oct 17 rollout specifically noted separate troops, then 30 - 60 days later linked troops was an option
• National rolls out updated YPT and sets a different standard for girls and leaders than boys in that if there are girls then there must be a female YPT leader.  No such gender specific requirement if there are boys at an activity
• Summer 2018 there are two specific handbooks denoted by gender

 

• Actually the linked troop option came out in February or March. It was done to allow sharing of resources and as a compromise between those that wanted fully coed troops and those that wanted things to not change. 
• The adult female requirement for units with female youth has been around for years, in the Venturing and Exploring programs. 
• The possibility of separate books for girls and boys was mentioned from the beginning. And this was done to keep those who hate the idea of the appearance of a coed program. 

 

Remember, Compromise is the art of making everyone equally unhappy. 😋

[Eagle1993]

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

My comment was on the messaging and the actual mismanagement and continued mishandling of the program changes messaging.  Likely, at this point, they are identical, never said they were not. 

There are issues with the tenure and tone of the program changes

• The original Oct 17 rollout specifically noted separate troops, then 30 - 60 days later linked troops was an option
• National rolls out updated YPT and sets a different standard for girls and leaders than boys in that if there are girls then there must be a female YPT leader.  No such gender specific requirement if there are boys at an activity
• Summer 2018 there are two specific handbooks denoted by gender

 

I agree there have been a lot of changes and I have a lot of issues with with how they have rolled this program out.  They made promises they never intended or could keep.  100% with you there. The YPT change is major and seems to be clearly impacted by adding girls.  I think the membership fee increase is simply them trying to fill a budget hole   

But I just think sometimes a book is just a book.  As long as the requirements stay the same I have no issues, in fact I support two different books.  If they start reducing requirements for girls I’ll have a problem and I’ll jump on board that complaint train!

 

[The Latin Scot]

I'm actually glad to hear they are publishing a separate handbook for girls. They more separation between the two sexes, the better. People have already been pushing too hard to fully integrate the two into a co-ed program; knowing they will have distinct handbooks is a sign that at least on some level, the folks at National realize the mistake that would be. And yes, I do acknowledge the fact that some might not agree with my perspective, but clearly somebody in the publishing wing of National does, and that can only be a good thing if you ask me. 

[HelpfulTracks]

Cubs - one coed pack - one book

Crews - one coed Crew - one book

Scouts BSA - separate gender troops - separate gender books

Makes sense. If they were the same book people would be complaining that’s its coed. Seems people are searching for problems that don’t exist. Now if the two books have different programs, then I will complain as well. Until we know that to be the case, I just don’t get the complaining.

[qwazse]

@Chris1, don't revise history...

7 hours ago, Chris1 said:

• The adult female requirement for units with female youth has been around for years, in the Venturing and Exploring programs. ...

Registered and trained adult female advisors or associates were never required for a coed crew. An adult female did not need to be present for crew meetings or daytime activities (coed or otherwise) ... only for overnights. The revised requirements could very well crush venturing. Lacking any evidence of a spike in girls being victimized by their male leaders, this requirement is purely defensive against projected litigation of incidents in BSA4G.

[Jameson76]

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

@Chris1, don't revise history...

Registered and trained adult female advisors or associates were never required for a coed crew. An adult female did not need to be present for crew meetings or daytime activities (coed or otherwise) ... only for overnights. The revised requirements could very well crush venturing. Lacking any evidence of a spike in girls being victimized by their male leaders, this requirement is purely defensive against projected litigation of incidents in BSA4G.

Yep.  I was the advisor for a coed explorer post in the 80's.  For meetings,  doing the Scout show, day activities, etc at that time only 1 leader was needed.  No requirement for female or male, just a leader.  The female leader was needed for the outings, and yes, the struggle was real to make that happen.

[FireStone]

If they did one book with combined photos of boys and girls, the complaints here would be the same. 

I'm honestly surprised that there isn't more support for separate books from the single-gender-scouting crowd. This supports the idea of separate troops entirely, doesn't it? A single merged book looks more like co-ed scouting. 

 

[gblotter]

13 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I'm honestly surprised that there isn't more support for separate books from the single-gender-scouting crowd. This supports the idea of separate troops entirely, doesn't it? A single merged book looks more like co-ed scouting.

I am ready to criticize BSA National about many things, and I detest the decision about girls in Scouting. But I will defend separate handbooks. I support as much separation as possible.