Gender Identity Issue

[Sentinel947]

40 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I don’t believe they would do this directly, but would pull in the appropriate YP resources.   If a child is telling a scout leader that they are having gender identity issues AND are unwilling to have that discussed with parents you have several options.  

1) Grant their wish and don’t tell their parents. 

2) Ignore their request and talk directly with their parents.

3) Escalate to BSA professionals (SE/DE/SCOUTS First) who can have professionals investigate prior to telling parents.

I recommend #3 based on what I saw when I was a youth.  Feel free to chose your own path.

 

I understand. Much depends on the Scout and what his reasons are for not telling his parents. 

[Eagledad]

13 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I'm kind of assuming here, but my understanding is that you're not a mental health professional, is that right?

Because what you are calling "abuse" is actually what mental health professionals are advising teachers here in NJ to do with students who identify as a gender other than their birth gender, and is prescribed as the best course of action for a student's mental health. 

No, I'm not a mental health professional. I was not focusing specifically on gender situations. However, once an adult starts down the road of supporting children in their emotions, I believe that support can be abuse.

Barry

[T2Eagle]

My advice would be to talk to the scout first about talking to the parents, and if the scout gives you reason to think his parents reaction would be bad then I believe you're obligated to not tell the parents.  The ugly truth is that not all parents are good, not all parents are nice, and sexual orientation and gender issues are forseeably an area that can trigger terrible behavior from a parent towards a child.  Putting a child at risk that way would be morally wrong.

If the scout can't talk to their parents then yes  you need some higher level expert help.  Getting the scout to talk to a counselor at school would probably be a good alternative to talking to their parents.   If you're at the point where you have reason not to talk to the parents, then you definitely need to get some guidance from higher up, either your DE/SE or someone in your CO.  Calling the school counselor yourself is also a possibility: "I have a scout, unnamed, who is one of your students has told me X, what can you the school counselor do, what do you a professional who also has a responsibility towards this child recommend that I do?"

But the best and most likely course is that your scout can talk to their parents, and then you can talk to their parents and move on from there.  Within the troop call the scout whatever they want to be called, it's not our job to decide what their name is.

Edited August 28, 2018 by T2Eagle

[Eagle1993]

44 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Props to everyone for not making this about membership. It's not.

Let's also not make this about abusive parents.

Impulsive decisions are part of adolescence. Great parents can have impulsive kids. In fact, most parents have impulsive kids. That's why we spend a lot of time training kids about fire, knives, and a whole bunch of other harmful things. In the process, we often see or hear from an impulsive youth in ways that make us pause, not because a given impulse is out of the ordinary per se, but because we think it could be part of a larger constellation. Or, because we think that impulse will result in a culture clash. Either way, if all evidence points to the scout having decent parents, talk to the parents and the scout in the order that makes sense.

It's okay to be honest that you've never dealt with anything like this before, and you're not sure the scouts' friends have either. So, just like with knives and fire and a host of other fairly innocuous things, you don't necessarily want to cater to the scouts' every wish, but you don't want to kick him/her to the curb either.

Ok... at some point you’ll probably (hopefully) talk with the parents.

One topic of discussion I would have is regarding YPT.  I do think there are legitimate questions on how to handle YPT policy with non binary youth.  If a scout identifies as a boy (regardless of birth gender) we are to treat him as a boy.  Again, if a youth identifies as a girl the same policy applies.  That then applies to tenting and bathroom policies.  I do question how we should handle YPT for a non binary youth and would look to the parents for their input.  I honestly don’t know how I would handle that situation.

[MattR]

Every time I take a first aid course there's a caveat; don't go beyond your training.

There's a guy that runs the youth program at our CO (a church) and this guy has seen a lot more than I have. Suicides, attempted suicides, drug and alcohol abuse, kids coming out. He's my go to person with experience. I only had to talk to him once but it was good advice.

My advice is find someone with a lot more experience than you have.

[NJCubScouter]

17 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Tell his parents that if he does not ""identify" as a boy, he is not eligible for membership.  If he chooses to "identify" as a girl, he will have to wait until girls are admitted.  Those are the only two choices available to them at the present time.  Sheesh.

Apparently he identifies as neither.  I'm not sure what you do in that case (other than talk to the parents and see how THEY identify him, if at all.)  My inclination is that if he does not identify as female, and identified as male when he joined, it does not seem right to remove him.

[NJCubScouter]

12 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Volunteers now feel licensed and privileged to encourage youth toward a lifestyle that may only be a phase or a mental health condition, and possibly without the parents knowledge.

I see no evidence here that anyone is "encouraging" this youth toward or away from anything.  I do agree that the parents should be contacted.  They should be told what their child has said and they should be asked if they are aware of it.  Maybe they say yes, maybe they tell you about some other wrinkle that you weren't aware of.  (I doubt they say they are completely unaware of it, but anything's possible.)  If they say yes, maybe you then ask them something like whether they feel it is appropriate for their child to be a member of an organization that is currently open to boys only.  If they say yes, I'm not sure where you go from there, if anywhere.

[NJCubScouter]

I am moving this to Issues and Politics.

[Kryten]

I think you need to at least talk to the parents first.

I find it disheartening that we are mandatory reporters to the BSA and Government agents.  But not to the actual parents of the scout. Who is a minor. 

[Oldscout448]

4 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I am moving this to Issues and Politics.

As you wish, but it is like it or not now a part of BSAs program

[Eagledad]

29 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I see no evidence here that anyone is "encouraging" this youth toward or away from anything.  I do agree that the parents should be contacted.  They should be told what their child has said and they should be asked if they are aware of it.  Maybe they say yes, maybe they tell you about some other wrinkle that you weren't aware of.  (I doubt they say they are completely unaware of it, but anything's possible.)  If they say yes, maybe you then ask them something like whether they feel it is appropriate for their child to be a member of an organization that is currently open to boys only.  If they say yes, I'm not sure where you go from there, if anywhere.

Maybe it was an over exaggeration, but a recommendation to follow the scout's wishes as a first step is not, IMO , a reasonable response. In fact, I think gender identification at this age is so serious that it requires full immediate involvement of the parents. I can't believe calling the parents first wasn't even considered.

I also agree with you that the parents are likely already aware of the situation, which is why they would get a few strong words from me for not working and preparing the volunteers of their sons troop for what they are about to experience. I've had that discussion with parents who felt the troop was a safe place to experiment with ADD medication on Troop camp outs without telling the troop. If the parents didn't know their son was considering this change, then that is a different, but just as complicated situation that requires special attention by experts that are likely not in the troop. 

I believe this is such a political hot potato in our culture at this time that the quick reaction by some folks is more to support and protect the political side of the situation than doing what is best for the scout and his family. That is neither compassionate nor safe for the scout as far as I'm concerned. 

Barry

Edited August 28, 2018 by Eagledad

[scoutldr]

38 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Apparently he identifies as neither.  I'm not sure what you do in that case (other than talk to the parents and see how THEY identify him, if at all.)  My inclination is that if he does not identify as female, and identified as male when he joined, it does not seem right to remove him.

Simply explain to the parents that the BSA is a "binary" organization..."male" or "female"...there is no provision for other "identities" or "no identity".  Let them discuss it with their child and let you know what they decide.  If they don't like your answer, give them the number of your SE.  What does not seem "right" to me is that society has deteriorated to the point that we have to have this discussion at all...especially as volunteers who are simply trying to help out.

 

[FireStone]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

No, I'm not a mental health professional. I was not focusing specifically on gender situations. However, once an adult starts down the road of supporting children in their emotions, I believe that support can be abuse.

Barry

That's not what the mental health pros are saying, not in the training they are providing to teachers in my area, so I'm going to go with them on this one. 

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, FireStone said:

That's not what the mental health pros are saying, not in the training they are providing to teachers in my area, so I'm going to go with them on this one. 

I'm sure that works best for you. I balance information with real life experiences. 

By the way, two of my kids are high school teachers. They have a completely different take from their training on this specific issue. They also admit the challenge of weeding out political bias from the information they are given.  Much of the training my teacher kids get is how to prevent litigation. 

As I said, I can't believe normal people would believe that not contacting the parents is a rational response. 

Barry

[walk in the woods]

15 hours ago, FireStone said:

I just asked my middle school teacher wife, her having just gone through a whole training session on gender identity. She was told that legally (here in NJ at least) teachers are required by law to refer to a student by the gender that they identify as. They do not have to talk to the parents (it's in line with "outing" a student and teachers aren't allowed to do that), or if a parent asks that they refer to their child as one gender and the student asks to be referred to as another gender, they have to defer to the student's wishes. 

Now that's public school, not scouting. But an interesting perspective on this issue. 

So genuine question here about how this works.  Suppose 11 year old Johnny shows up to school the first day, decides he doesn't identify with any gender and wants to be called Pat/they.  All the teachers and administrators spend the first quarter calling Johnny by his requested name and pronoun.  On the evening of Parent-Teacher conferences, Johnny and his parents show up and the teacher says "Good to see you Pat, come sit down."  Is that really the guidance?