How to comply ? New G2SS, YPT and (gasp) females !!

[DeanRx]

I'll add to the mess with this....

Co-Ed Cub pack with limited leadership has a family campout planned.  Maybe realistic, maybe not... but IF the pack cannot wrangle up at least ONE registered, female leader over the age of 21....

Do you cancel the trip?  Tell half your pack (all the girls) that they can't go on the family pack campout?  Fudge the rules and say "well, there's a couple unregistered moms along.... that meets the spirit of the rule"?  Do you hurry up and submit an adult application for one of the moms (that may or may not have a completed background check and current YPT by the campout?

I don't really disagree with the need for a female (of any type) on an overnight with female youth.  Why the heck can't it just be "One registered adult over 21 years old and one other adult - one of which must be female is female youth are involved - for any overnight activity"  and "One registered adult over 21 and one other adult over 21 (gender immaterial) for all non-overnight scouting activities"

Seems that would fix a LOT of the problems.  I still don't agree with the double standard of two female leaders are OK for male youth, but not vice versa... but I understand why some want a female for female youth rule.

Dean

[scotteg83]

My recent issue at Webelos camp could fall under this question.

Last week, myself and 2 other registered Male leaders, took 4 boys and 1 girl to Resident camp.  The girl happens to be my daughter.

Our campsite was shared by 2 other units.  One was all boy and male leaders, the other was a unit that had 5 Webelos boys, and one Webelos girl (the girls of both units shared a tent).

SO officially, we had 2 girls in camp, with no female leadership.

Now, me being the father of one, did I still need a female leader?  The other unit's girl was NOT a direct family member and definitely needed a female leader.

Luckily, the Camp Director arranged to have a female staffer over 21 join our campsite for the 3 nights, but it still raised a flag since we were going station to station without female leadership.

now that its past, the Camp Director has realized that next year, all female/co-ed units should be in the same campsite with the same rotation periods, so they could go together.  (there was 2 other units with female leadership and girl Webelos).

 

So I guess my real question is:  If the Scout is my daughter, do I still need to bring a female leader if my daughter is our only female scout attending an event?  Another long time scouter told me that as soon as she staid in a different tent, she should have been treated as a Scout, and not a dependent, and proper female leadership should have attended.

[mashmaster]

30 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

My recent issue at Webelos camp could fall under this question.

Last week, myself and 2 other registered Male leaders, took 4 boys and 1 girl to Resident camp.  The girl happens to be my daughter.

Our campsite was shared by 2 other units.  One was all boy and male leaders, the other was a unit that had 5 Webelos boys, and one Webelos girl (the girls of both units shared a tent).

SO officially, we had 2 girls in camp, with no female leadership.

Now, me being the father of one, did I still need a female leader?  The other unit's girl was NOT a direct family member and definitely needed a female leader.

Luckily, the Camp Director arranged to have a female staffer over 21 join our campsite for the 3 nights, but it still raised a flag since we were going station to station without female leadership.

now that its past, the Camp Director has realized that next year, all female/co-ed units should be in the same campsite with the same rotation periods, so they could go together.  (there was 2 other units with female leadership and girl Webelos).

 

So I guess my real question is:  If the Scout is my daughter, do I still need to bring a female leader if my daughter is our only female scout attending an event?  Another long time scouter told me that as soon as she staid in a different tent, she should have been treated as a Scout, and not a dependent, and proper female leadership should have attended.

You can always be with your child.  the problem comes when a girl is not related to a leader, then you need a female leader I believe.

 

[Hawkwin]

2 hours ago, DeanRx said:

Hawkwin-

 

I never specifically said a CUB girl... say you got a boys troop and a girls troop.  Sister A is a registered member in the girls troop.  She tags along to the public park for her brother's patrol meeting that happens to be attended by only 2 male adult leaders over 21 (which is another dead horse issue that needs continued beating)...

She isn't a member of the troop. She is, as you state, a tag along. Same rules should apply that would govern any other non-member of the troop that happens to be on site during a troop event.

 

2 hours ago, DeanRx said:

So, must the adults call in a female registered adult?  Ask the young lady to leave the immediate area of the park? Or is it of no concern of theirs because even though she is a BSA registered youth.... she doesn't "belong" to THEIR unit, so not their responsibility ?!?!

Correct. Not the troop's responsibility any more than a boy that was a tag along non-member of the troop.

2 hours ago, DeanRx said:

but impossible to follow in real life situations.

Dean

 

No, but we adult arm-chair lawyers can sure find ways to muck it up more than it need be. Troops are not responsible for non-members.

[Hawkwin]

2 hours ago, DeanRx said:

I'll add to the mess with this....

Co-Ed Cub pack with limited leadership has a family campout planned.  Maybe realistic, maybe not... but IF the pack cannot wrangle up at least ONE registered, female leader over the age of 21....

Do you cancel the trip? 

Before you even get to the point of pack events, you need to have at least one registered female leader for the DEN. 

2 hours ago, DeanRx said:

Tell half your pack (all the girls) that they can't go on the family pack campout?  Fudge the rules and say "well, there's a couple unregistered moms along.... that meets the spirit of the rule"?  Do you hurry up and submit an adult application for one of the moms (that may or may not have a completed background check and current YPT by the campout?

Your pack should be planning now for such possibilities by having more than a single registered adult female so that is not an issue. If  you are a pack that will be taking girls, then it is your responsibility to "be prepared" for the fact that you will likely need more than a single female adult leader.

 

2 hours ago, DeanRx said:

I don't really disagree with the need for a female (of any type) on an overnight with female youth.  Why the heck can't it just be "One registered adult over 21 years old and one other adult - one of which must be female is female youth are involved - for any overnight activity"  and "One registered adult over 21 and one other adult over 21 (gender immaterial) for all non-overnight scouting activities"

Seems that would fix a LOT of the problems.  I still don't agree with the double standard of two female leaders are OK for male youth, but not vice versa... but I understand why some want a female for female youth rule.

Dean

No disagreement with your last two paragraphs. Not a fan of the double standard. A (YPT trained) scout is trustworthy, unless they are a male around girls then they must be under the watchful eye of a female.

And of course, the assumption by extension that two YPT trained males are of no risk of violating the rules with just boys around.

[Hawkwin]

41 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

So I guess my real question is:  If the Scout is my daughter, do I still need to bring a female leader if my daughter is our only female scout attending an event?  Another long time scouter told me that as soon as she staid in a different tent, she should have been treated as a Scout, and not a dependent, and proper female leadership should have attended.

I face the same issue with my daughter and I am her Den Leader.

While I want to roll my eyes at much of this mess, I have to give a head nod to the idea that she is indeed a scout and should be treated as such with proper female leadership (believe me, I loathe this rule as it negatively impacts my ability to be a leader - made my wife sit through the YPT so I could at least give some lip service to having a YPT female around).

You being there doesn't satisfy the YPT standards. We can imagine a different circumstance where you might be divorced and took your daughter to such an event and your x-wife filed a complaint against the camp for not following YPT rules. Accusations could be made (about you or maybe another staff member). Even if nothing happened, the camp did not follow the rules.

[DeanRx]

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

She isn't a member of the troop. She is, as you state, a tag along. Same rules should apply that would govern any other non-member of the troop that happens to be on site during a troop event.

 

Correct. Not the troop's responsibility any more than a boy that was a tag along non-member of the troop.

So, can you show me in BSA guidelines / G2SS / YPT or any other place that states we are only responsible for scouts IN OUR OWN UNIT ?  You state that because she isn't a member of the troop, she is not the troops responsibility?  Ok maybe...

So, if I'm an adult leader chaperone at a weeklong summer camp... and I see a YPT violation involving a camp staffer and a youth (gender does not matter), but that youth is NOT a member of my unit, its not my problem?  But, according to BSA - I'm expected to act as a mandatory reporter...

If I KNOW said female youth IS registered with BSA in a unit (just not my unit) - and she shows up at a BSA unit function (i.e. Patrol meeting in a park), that as registered adult leaders, we have no responsibility to her?  Its either a must have a female leader rule, or its not.  I fail to see how someone can wash their hands of the situation just because the youth is NOT a registered member of your specific unit.

If there is published guidance on this... I'd sure love to see it.

Dean

[Treflienne]

4 hours ago, DeanRx said:

Do you hurry up and submit an adult application for one of the moms (that may or may not have a completed background check and current YPT by the campout?

I leave it to you guys to hash out just how bad the new rules are.

But are far as managing to live with the rules:  In GSUSA we were required to have two registered adults for every event. Also, any driver had to be a registered girl scout adult.   So,  proactively,  we asked all the moms to register themselves (and do the CORI check) at the beginning of the year when they registered their daughters.  Almost all did so. (They were all already used to CORI checks for school volunteering, etc, so they tought it was normal.)  Thus if we needed an additional driver or a substitute adult in a pinch, we had a pool we could draw on.

[DeanRx]

No offense Trelienne... but how many MALE leaders did you EVER have in your GSUSA unit?

[Treflienne]

I should have said "But are far as managing to live with the rules requiring that adults be registered" . . . .

I'd rather stay out of the argument about ages and genders of required BSA adults.

In my area, the GSUSA elementary age troops are typically rather small and single grade.  (I suppose more like a den.)   For a typical year we had 13 girls.   Most of the moms were registered.  3 or 4 of the dads were registered.  GSUSA distinguishes between leaders ("01s" and "02s", the "leader" and "assistant leader") who are encouraged to have training and other registered adults who need not take leader training.   Depending on the type of event only one or perhaps two of the adults present need to be trained; the other adults required for the adult-to-kid ratio need only be registered and background checked.  So, no male "leaders",  but registered, background-checked dads who were available to help out when called on.

My point was that it was not hard (in my experience) to get parents to register (and pay the registration fee, and do the background check) so as to be available to help.  Getting them to turn in permission slips on time was a completely different matter.

[69RoadRunner]

Well, you could say you're gender fluid and during scouting events you identify as female.

[Jameson76]

So...question on this topic - 

We have the Webelos come for a campout each year.  Also they visit a meeting during the year.  While we are a large troop (40 +/- on campouts / 90 +/- registered) there are no female leaders that regularly camp nor attend the meetings.  We do have female committee members who work on a large number of items, they are registered and YPT compliant.

When we have the Webelos campout, and if a Female Webelos were to attend (or multiple) would we need to have a registered YPT female leader present to be in compliance?  Note that for the Webelos attending this is not an official Pack event, and while they are guests of the troop on a visit they tent with their parent (or adult partner), do not ride to or from with the troop, and while we do ask for their approximate time they will be in attendance, we as a troop do not assume responsibility.  They are their visiting with their parent who has that responsibility.

Same for the meeting visitation.  Parents bring the Webelos, they shadow during the meeting, we have a parents session.  Will we need a trained YPT female there in case we get some female Webelos?

Just curious what say the New World Order YPT internet lawyers?

[malraux]

4 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

When we have the Webelos campout, and if a Female Webelos were to attend (or multiple) would we need to have a registered YPT female leader present to be in compliance? 

Long term, the sensical thing to do would be for the girls webelos den to visit a girls troop. Obviously it'll be a muddle through for the next year while the girl troops get established.

[walk in the woods]

13 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

So...question on this topic - 

We have the Webelos come for a campout each year.  Also they visit a meeting during the year.  While we are a large troop (40 +/- on campouts / 90 +/- registered) there are no female leaders that regularly camp nor attend the meetings.  We do have female committee members who work on a large number of items, they are registered and YPT compliant.

When we have the Webelos campout, and if a Female Webelos were to attend (or multiple) would we need to have a registered YPT female leader present to be in compliance?  Note that for the Webelos attending this is not an official Pack event, and while they are guests of the troop on a visit they tent with their parent (or adult partner), do not ride to or from with the troop, and while we do ask for their approximate time they will be in attendance, we as a troop do not assume responsibility.  They are their visiting with their parent who has that responsibility.

Same for the meeting visitation.  Parents bring the Webelos, they shadow during the meeting, we have a parents session.  Will we need a trained YPT female there in case we get some female Webelos?

Just curious what say the New World Order YPT internet lawyers?

So the short answer would seem to be yes, you'll need a YPT trained over 21 years old female registered leader present in either scenario. 

10 minutes ago, malraux said:

Long term, the sensical thing to do would be for the girls webelos den to visit a girls troop. Obviously it'll be a muddle through for the next year while the girl troops get established.

Not clear the scenario disappears after next year.  Could be unregistered parent/guardian brings AOL son to Webelos campout/meeting, but, also brings Webelos or Bear daughter along (family friendly, yes?).  That triggers the need for the registered female leadership.  

[Hawkwin]

13 hours ago, DeanRx said:

So, can you show me in BSA guidelines / G2SS / YPT or any other place that states we are only responsible for scouts IN OUR OWN UNIT ?  You state that because she isn't a member of the troop, she is not the troops responsibility?  Ok maybe...

Can you show me where it states that troops are responsible for providing adequate YPT coverage for individuals that are not members of their unit? You appear to be reading into a requirement not stated.

13 hours ago, DeanRx said:

So, if I'm an adult leader chaperone at a weeklong summer camp... and I see a YPT violation involving a camp staffer and a youth (gender does not matter), but that youth is NOT a member of my unit, its not my problem?  But, according to BSA - I'm expected to act as a mandatory reporter...

Well, I would not deem it your "problem" but I would think you both have a DUTY and a DESIRE to not allow it to continue so reporting it is definitely your "problem."

Funny, in such a situation I would be THANKFUL that I witnessed such an issue and that I could report it. I would be pleased to know that I just might have prevented the abuse of a child. Thinking of it as a problem would be farthest from my mind.