REI weighs in

[walk in the woods]

REI Blog on gender inclusion in youth programs.

[HelpfulTracks]

A surprisingly well done article. Anytime I see articles/opinion pieces written by companies with a direct profit motive I expect it to be overly colored by said motive. I think this one is well balanced.

[qwazse]

Quote

In all-gender courses, Schmidt said, there is a greater chance to see the strength across genders and translate that to the real world. Yet, “I might see young men and women falling into these societal traps—for example young men wanting to help the young women with a hard section of off-trail scrambling. … When it appears to take on a gender bias of who you help and who does the helping, I wonder about the hidden messages that are being reinforced if it is not used as a learning opportunity,” he said.

This happened to Daughter, not in venturing, but when she was on a college youth outing. A young man, bless his little Oklahoman heart, reached out to help her jump a set of boulders that she had no trouble handling. In East Coast fashion she declined and skipped right past the poor guy.

No idea whose message is being enforced in those kinds of exchanges. But, the boulders certainly didn't care.

[Saltface]

9 hours ago, qwazse said:

This happened to Daughter, not in venturing, but when she was on a college youth outing. A young man, bless his little Oklahoman heart, reached out to help her jump a set of boulders that she had no trouble handling. In East Coast fashion she declined and skipped right past the poor guy.

No idea whose message is being enforced in those kinds of exchanges. But, the boulders certainly didn't care.

Well, how would she feel if he opened a door for her or let the ladies eat first because he knew they underestimated how much food to bring? 

[T2Eagle]

7 hours ago, Saltface said:

Well, how would she feel if he opened a door for her or let the ladies eat first because he knew they underestimated how much food to bring? 

I thought I'd know the answer, but I didn't want to guess so I asked Mrs. T2  (we'd had a somewhat related conversation recently). She said if someone opens the door for me because they got there first and are being courteous that's nice, when I get to a door first I hold it open for people.  If someone thinks they need to hold a door for me because they're a man and I'm a woman, that's silly mostly, with enough condescension based on the history of the practice to annoy me if they make a point of it.

Let ladies eat first, she said, " that's definitely condescending; the reason to do that would be a sense that women need to be protected by the men, or the women are weaker than the men and therefore couldn't stand the privation, or both, either way it's based on a sense of being superior/stronger because you're a man, and I have no patience for that **** any more."

[Saltface]

3 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I thought I'd know the answer, but I didn't want to guess so I asked Mrs. T2  (we'd had a somewhat related conversation recently). She said if someone opens the door for me because they got there first and are being courteous that's nice, when I get to a door first I hold it open for people.  If someone thinks they need to hold a door for me because they're a man and I'm a woman, that's silly mostly, with enough condescension based on the history of the practice to annoy me if they make a point of it.

Let ladies eat first, she said, " that's definitely condescending; the reason to do that would be a sense that women need to be protected by the men, or the women are weaker than the men and therefore couldn't stand the privation, or both, either way it's based on a sense of being superior/stronger because you're a man, and I have no patience for that **** any more."

In that case, I’m glad that by doing such things I can please the people I care about and offend the ones I don’t. 

[walk in the woods]

On 8/19/2018 at 2:08 AM, qwazse said:

This happened to Daughter, not in venturing, but when she was on a college youth outing. A young man, bless his little Oklahoman heart, reached out to help her jump a set of boulders that she had no trouble handling. In East Coast fashion she declined and skipped right past the poor guy.

No idea whose message is being enforced in those kinds of exchanges. But, the boulders certainly didn't care.

This encapsulates my biggest concerns with Scouting USA.  In the old days we taught scouts that it was a virtue to lift his brothers burden or help those younger and weaker than himself.  If this scenario had played out with the young man attempting to help a second young man, we'd applaud them both.  One for offering help where he perceived it was needed and the second for accomplishing the task.  However, in this quote, rather than celebrating both people, we see the first  young man's values being mocked because the second person was female.  Sorry @qwazse but if this attitude wins the field, the BSA's days are numbered.

12 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I thought I'd know the answer, but I didn't want to guess so I asked Mrs. T2  (we'd had a somewhat related conversation recently). She said if someone opens the door for me because they got there first and are being courteous that's nice, when I get to a door first I hold it open for people.  If someone thinks they need to hold a door for me because they're a man and I'm a woman, that's silly mostly, with enough condescension based on the history of the practice to annoy me if they make a point of it.

Let ladies eat first, she said, " that's definitely condescending; the reason to do that would be a sense that women need to be protected by the men, or the women are weaker than the men and therefore couldn't stand the privation, or both, either way it's based on a sense of being superior/stronger because you're a man, and I have no patience for that **** any more."

@T2Eagle, and with all due respect to Mrs. T2, how exactly can she tell the difference between a man who is just "being courteous" and a man who holds the door for her because he was taught that's how gentlemen behave (because it's the courteous thing to do)?  Does she have some kind of ESP that she can use to determine the intention of the man holding the door?  Similarly for ladies eat first, is she saying if the two of you are eating out and your food is delivered first, you should just dig in?  Frankly, that would be just rude regardless of gender of the diners.  

We live in an interesting time where gentlemen are mocked, and, sought out.

[RememberSchiff]

These individual "misunderstandings" usually take care of themselves. The real problem is when courteous, kind, friendly scouts stop being so because of those misunderstandings.

I still help little old ladies and men to cross the street, lift bags, ... it's what we do.

[qwazse]

20 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

This encapsulates my biggest concerns with Scouting USA.  In the old days we taught scouts that it was a virtue to lift his brothers burden or help those younger and weaker than himself.  If this scenario had played out with the young man attempting to help a second young man, we'd applaud them both.  One for offering help where he perceived it was needed and the second for accomplishing the task.  However, in this quote, rather than celebrating both people, we see the first  young man's values being mocked because the second person was female.  Sorry @qwazse but if this attitude wins the field, the BSA's days are numbered. 

@T2Eagle, and with all due respect to Mrs. T2, how exactly can she tell the difference between a man who is just "being courteous" and a man who holds the door for her because he was taught that's how gentlemen behave (because it's the courteous thing to do)?  Does she have some kind of ESP that she can use to determine the intention of the man holding the door?  Similarly for ladies eat first, is she saying if the two of you are eating out and your food is delivered first, you should just dig in?  Frankly, that would be just rude regardless of gender of the diners.  

We live in an interesting time where gentlemen are mocked, and, sought out.

WiW, the old days aren't gone. My venturers had plenty of opportunities to "load balance" packs because some enthusiastic lodge chief overloaded his sister with gear. (Or, some crazy old crew advisor brought too many comfort items!) Around here, our boys ask other boys if they need help and are waved off regularly. That has been going on for as long as I can remember, and the potential recipient of help doesn't get a talking to about accepting help unless we see him having real safety issues or getting really frustrated!

To round-off Daughter's story, when we repeated it to other friends, one southerner (an Aggie), pointed out that,  "He probably liked her and was just trying to be a gentleman."

I respect in the kid. I really do. His real problem is that this wasn't a barn dance. And she wasn't in heels. So, presuming a properly geared hiking partner would need a hand based on sex doesn't necessarily fly in the wild -- especially if you need to keep an eye out for the guy who came in sandals!*

Now, when there are real doors, and a person is in heels or a hijab, I am quick to hold it for them. Looking sharp just seems to be so much harder for ladies, and figure I owe them respect for that.

That leaves a lot of middle ground. (This is after all, the worst dressed city in the country.) I generally err on the side of getting hash-tag-me-too'ed by some post-modern nomad.

*P.S. - The sandals bit is a subtle dig at a Pakistani friend who was a scout. It takes a lot to convince him to at least put on sneakers for our hikes.

[Jameson76]

Good article, I found the groups they highlighted were not all the same.

From what I could read the BOLD and GOLD seemed to be ongoing programs, not unlike the Boy Scouts program.  Likely a stable membership group.  That group saw value in the single gender as the groups did activities.  Let them be more open within that group

The Outward Bound and the Lasting Adventures, the Yosemite-based guiding service for young adults may have a different perspective in that they are more single event groups.  The Outward Bound acknowledged that both are good, the Lasting Adventures may be looking at a more commercial focus, the butts in seats need for revenue.  Not saying that their input is not valid, just they are coming at it from different perspectives.

That is going to be the challenge moving forward, (speaking only for the Boy Scouts 11 -17 program) how to balance those that may want single gender and those that want for all intents and purposes coed.  Let's be honest, the linked troop is a coed unit.

For many units they have little to no interaction with other units so the impact will be very minimal.  Our troop does 13 - 15 outdoor activities each year.  The high adventure, Seabase or Philmont is crew based and from a functional perspective will go on as currently operating.  For our troop campouts no changes.  Over the years we have not attended any district or council camporees.  Not that we work against those, just not a high attendance event for the troop.  Not we have 90 +/- Scouts in the unit.  We are patrol based, youth led, and will continue that way.  Not moving to family camping in any way.  The summer camps, we attend 2 each summer, and we wonder what the impact may be.  Likely minimal, but who knows.

I trust the BSA will respect and support the troops / units that desire to remain single gender.  That is what works for them, many have been and continue to be successful.  There is value in both approaches.