Swimming Requirements for Rank

[ScoutTrainer]

I would like opinions on a Troop that I have encountered a few months back, but it's been festering in my mind.

While talking to a Scoutmaster at a local Merit Badge University, the subject of swim test requirements for rank came up.  He (somewhat jokingly) said that his troop was a magnet for drop outs from other area Troops because his Troop "just signs off" on the swim test requirements without a Scout ever having to attempt even the beginner test.  My response was a quick laugh and "Thanks for the laugh.  I needed that!"  He said "No, I'm serious - it's just not worth the hassle of fighting the over protective, helicopter parents and enforcing the rules.  My son is on the downhill stretch toward Eagle and when that happens, I'm outta here.  I'm tired of fighting the parents."

I was speechless.  Now, I'm by no means an expert or well-seasoned Scouter (only 6 or 7 years mostly Cubs - figuring out the Troop thing slowly but surely), however, I do read and the 2017 Guide to Advancement clearly states  

Policy on Unauthorized Changes to Advancement Program

No council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to, or subtract from, advancement requirements. 

It's a serious disservice to the Troop to let them bypass requirements that are clearly meant to challenge and help the boys grow.  Aside from that, it kind of smears the Scout Law into a blur.

Would you do or say anything about this?  Or no?  Thoughts, discussion and advice from the many experienced Scouters here is welcome.

[TMSM]

I am guessing there is more to this that was not said. Perhaps they passed the swim test for summer camp so the do not retest before signing off.  

[mashmaster]

That is dangerous.  First off they shouldn't get signed off on that requirement unless they pass the test.  What lesson are we teaching them  But more importantly, what happens in a water situation where the scout goes into the water and can't swim safely?  

I would say something in my opinion 

[ScoutTrainer]

20 minutes ago, TMSM said:

I am guessing there is more to this that was not said. Perhaps they passed the swim test for summer camp so the do not retest before signing off.  

No - it was expressly clear that he does not require the swim tests for advancement requirements. He stated that he just signs that off in their book and skips it.  He says that none of his Scouts swim at summer camp.  He himself is also a non-swimmer.

Edited August 12, 2018 by ScoutTrainer

[ScoutTrainer]

18 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

That is dangerous.  First off they shouldn't get signed off on that requirement unless they pass the test.  What lesson are we teaching them  But more importantly, what happens in a water situation where the scout goes into the water and can't swim safely?  

I would say something in my opinion 

Exactly.  It is a life safety lesson.  And it defies the whole "trustworthy" part of the Scout Law.

Who would you suggest saying something to?  I know our DE would turn his head the other way.  He avoids conflict at all costs.  Not really sure about the Council.... 

[TMSM]

So they don't do summer camp, earn Swimming Merit badge, Kayaking MB, Canoeing MB, or Sailing MB go to Sea Base or Northern Tier and I would assume the troop or the patrols don't do weekend trips on the water. 

I wonder what else they sign off on just to keep the peace.

 

[thrifty]

Doesn't surprise me at all.  I see that kind of attitude often with newer leaders that are only in it so their kids can Eagle.  

I believe in following the rules with a little common sense mixed in.  That being said, I will also say that I despise the swimming requirements.  My son had swimming lessons when he was younger but we are never around water.  When it came time for his First Class swim requirements, he could not do it.  We don't own a pool.  Don't know anyone with a pool or any body of water.  Wife and I are able to swim but do so poorly and could not teach how to do so.  We ended up spending $400 for a family rec center pass because one of us had to go in with him because of his age.  We then spent several more hundred on swimming lessons.  Just for him to pass a BSA Swim test one time.  I do believe that knowing how to swim is important but several years later and he's never been swimming again.  He takes an automatic fail on the camp swim test.  The troop doesn't do water/boating type of activities.  That was a lot of money just to pass that one requirement.  If he were in some type of water accident, I don't think he'd be any better or worse off then he was before passing the swimming requirement.  He earned Hiking instead of Swimming.  Just because someone has passed a swim test does not necessarily prepare them for anything.

 

[Thunderbird]

1 hour ago, ScoutTrainer said:

Exactly.  It is a life safety lesson.  And it defies the whole "trustworthy" part of the Scout Law.

Who would you suggest saying something to?  I know our DE would turn his head the other way.  He avoids conflict at all costs.  Not really sure about the Council.... 

And also "obedient" - as in, following the rules.

There are some very limited exceptions where alternate requirements can be used for Scouts with physical or mental disabilities (must be approved by council advancement committee), but this sounds more like a blanket exception for all / most Scouts in the troop.

What about your district or council advancement coordinators?

 

[mashmaster]

2 hours ago, ScoutTrainer said:

Exactly.  It is a life safety lesson.  And it defies the whole "trustworthy" part of the Scout Law.

Who would you suggest saying something to?  I know our DE would turn his head the other way.  He avoids conflict at all costs.  Not really sure about the Council.... 

As a family of lifeguards and swim teachers, I am very concerned about aquatics safety.   Does the committee chair know about this? If he does and doesn't care, I would call the District Commissioner and express your concerns.  

[walk in the woods]

I suppose the question is what do you hope to accomplish by "saying something?"  Do you want the SM defrocked?  Troop charter suspended?  Force boys to go back in rank?  Even if the DE or other VIP says something are they going to send representatives to enforce swim checks?  Are you going to go hold swim checks for this unit?  Is there a safety issue for that unit if they don't do any water activities?  Be sure you've evaluated your own motives before creating a s*** storm.

[qwazse]

9 hours ago, thrifty said:

...  When it came time for his First Class swim requirements, he could not do it.  We don't own a pool.  Don't know anyone with a pool or any body of water.  Wife and I are able to swim but do so poorly and could not teach how to do so.  We ended up spending $400 for a family rec center pass because one of us had to go in with him because of his age.  We then spent several more hundred on swimming lessons.  Just for him to pass a BSA Swim test one time. ...

I would argue that you didn't invest spend money for a requirement. You invested in your scout learning to swim. 

This is also a break-down of the patrol method. The PL, with guidance of leaders in the troop should have made it a priority to help their buddy master those skills.

But back to the OP ... it astounds me that someone thinks it's more important to placate parents by saying falsely that his scouts are first class. There's no shame in having a troop full of tenderfoot scouts. @ScoutTrainer, get in touch with your district advancement chair. I disagree with @walk in the woods. It is demoralizing to boys in neighboring troops (and they will get to know one another) when they hear that other scouts are skating by. Word should make it to the SM that future Eagle boards of review will be held at a local pool.

[RememberSchiff]

IMO, every scout a swimmer should be program. Fix the problem, get it done (yes it is hard), and done right. 

My younger son nearly drowned at a pool (not BSA). He was underwater in the unmarked deep end of a new pool when rescued. I wasn't there for him (Dad wasn't there). Years of anxiety therapy ($$$) were needed before he would go near the water to just fish. He would take a bath but not a shower as he became terrified if his face got wet. We tried private swim instruction - myself, his older brother who was on  a swim team, BSA, Red Cross, and the Y swim instructors without success. He was terrified. Finally, I found Angelfish which teaches swimming to special needs. It took them months just  to build his confidence to float face down (eyes closed) and over a year to finally pass the BSA swim test, however he would not attempt Swimming merit badge. I would rather he earned Swimming MB than Eagle (if he does). 

He is on an outing this week which includes canoing and rafting, a first for him. I hope he can relax and enjoy the experience.

I understand that some adults desire sheltered, unadventurous lives for their kids where they never need to swim, tie a bowline,  hike uphill, camp in the rain, do CPR, secure a tourniquet, etc and will want a pass on learning such never-needed skills. That is not what the Scouting program is about.

My $0.02,

Edited August 13, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[MikeS72]

28 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMO, every scout a swimmer should be program. Fix the problem, get it done (yes it is hard), and done right. 

My younger son nearly drowned at a pool (not BSA). He was underwater in the unmarked deep end of a new pool when rescued. I wasn't there for him (Dad wasn't there). Years of anxiety therapy ($$$) were needed before he would go near the water to just fish. He would take a bath but not a shower as he became terrified if his face got wet. We tried private swim instruction - myself, his older brother who was on  a swim team, BSA, Red Cross, and the Y swim instructors without success. He was terrified. Finally, I found Angelfish which teaches swimming to special needs. It took them months just  to build his confidence to float face down (eyes closed) and over a year to finally pass the BSA swim test, however he would not attempt Swimming merit badge. I would rather he earned Swimming MB than Eagle (if he does). 

He is on an outing this week which includes canoing and rafting, a first for him. I hope he can relax and enjoy the experience.

I understand that some adults desire sheltered, unadventurous lives for their kids where they never need to swim, tie a bowline,  hike uphill, camp in the rain, do CPR, secure a tourniquet, etc and will want a pass on learning such never-needed skills. That is not what the Scouting program is about.

My $0.02,

Exactly why skipping this particular requirement can have unintended and deadly consequences.

I took longer than expected to reach First Class, precisely because when younger we did not live near enough to a pool to learn to swim.  If it had not been a BSA requirement, I would never have bothered to learn; however, it was, and while it took a while, I did learn.  I also earned my Eagle when there were not alternates to swimming or lifesaving merit badges.

While I have never had to perform a water rescue, I firmly believe every Scout should know what to do in and around water.  

[walk in the woods]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

I would argue that you didn't invest spend money for a requirement. You invested in your scout learning to swim. 

This is also a break-down of the patrol method. The PL, with guidance of leaders in the troop should have made it a priority to help their buddy master those skills.

But back to the OP ... it astounds me that someone thinks it's more important to placate parents by saying falsely that his scouts are first class. There's no shame in having a troop full of tenderfoot scouts. @ScoutTrainer, get in touch with your district advancement chair. I disagree with @walk in the woods. It is demoralizing to boys in neighboring troops (and they will get to know one another) when they hear that other scouts are skating by. Word should make it to the SM that future Eagle boards of review will be held at a local pool.

Just for clarity, I believe the swimming requirements are a net asset to advancement.  Like @thrifty I spent a bunch of money on rec center memberships and private swimming lessons for my son with autism so he could learn to swim.  We also endured the pain and struggle that his autism caused in the process (we starting with splashing water on his face because he couldn't bear the sensation of it).  I have very old and faded swimming, lifesaving, and mile swim badges in a box somewhere.  But, that has no bearing on my response to the OP. 

Call me a cynic but we all know that as long as the troop in question is making it's annual registration payment and maybe kicking in a little to FOS/Popcorn, the district, council and national aren't going to do a damn thing about it.  The same way they aren't going to do anything to units that publicly announce they are running co-ed scouting in contravention of the program, or units that camp their cub scouts in non-approved campgrounds, or play lazer tag or paintball or use squirt guns, etc.  Other than YPT issues the PTB aren't going to drop a charter of a unit that's paying.  My question to the OP is simple, is it worth the pain and hassle to bang your head against that wall?

As for the boys in other units, they have a choice.  They can be demoralized that somebody else got to skate, or, they can take pride in a job well done (and feel some sense of sadness/pity for their less fortunate brothers).  If we are in fact teaching character they'll choose the latter.  If we're worried about equality of outcome or fairness or some such stuff they'll choose the former.

[Jameson76]

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

I understand that some adults desire sheltered, unadventurous lives for their kids where they never need to swim, tie a bowline,  hike uphill, camp in the rain, do CPR, secure a tourniquet, etc and will want a pass on learning such never-needed skills. That is not what the Scouting program is about.

Correct, as the point many (oh so many) miss, it is not the destination, but the journey that makes the Scouting program valuable.  Just looking at swimming; there is the practical side and then the growth side.

On the practical side, if you look at deaths among teenagers, about 50% are unintentional injuries.  Of those about 73% are vehicle, but drownings are 5% of those.  There is a real value in knowing how to swim, you may not drown.  Also in swimming MB and sessions a youth may actually get some knowledge on how to swim safely, maybe help a friend at some point

On the growth side, swimming may take some youth out of their comfort zone, actually challenge them to accomplish a hard personal goal.  Again, part of the journey