Summer Camp Merit Badge Questions

[robhixkg]

Good afternoon all,

I am processing our troop summer camp advancements and I have some questions.

First let me state, I am aware the guide to advancement state that once a requirement is signed off we cannot take it back.  I am guessing this goes for merit badges as well as rank requirements.  

Second, let me say I absolutely loathe the fact that BSA speaks out of both sides of their mouth on some things.  They state that the requirements must be done as written then do not require the camps to abide by this requirement.  I know some things cannot be done at camp.  That should be documented in the camp materials, the merit badge completed as a partial and then move on.  The scout should have to finish that up away from camp.

This leave me wondering what to do in situations where I know a requirement could not have been completed at camp. 

First case, the camping merit badge, requirement 4b states:

Quote

Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout, including creating the duty roster, menu planning, equipment needs, general planning, and setting up camp.

I cannot see this being done at camp, yet I have a camp saying that scouts have completed it. What can I do in situations like this?

Second question, the scouts in our troop that were doing the camping merit badge had to have the Scoutmaster verify their camping nights for requirement 9a.  Since our Scoutmaster did not have access to their camping records, he would not sign this, promising to follow-up after getting back from camp.  Yay scoutmaster and camp on this one.  One of our scouts, not getting a scoutmaster signature for completion, went to his dad and got him to sign for the requirement.  Dad was at summer camp.  Dad is not a registered merit badge counselor for anything!  However, the scouts records come back from camp showing that he completed the camping merit badge.  On this one, I think I can deny it simply on the fact that the camping night verification did not have a valid signature on it.  Can I deny him completion on this?  If not, what are my options, if any?

Thanks for any help you can give.

[mashmaster]

Just because the camp says they did something doesn't mean you sign off on it.  The troop should verify they did the requirement.  For instance, we had a scout with a broken arm ear the swimming merit badge at camp.  Not even physically possible so you need to verify what they did.  In fact, most boys if you ask them what they did for a requirement will be more than happy to only take credit for what they did.  A camp advancement sheet does not necessarily equal the signing of a blue card or book.  That is your role.  

Be prepared that the boys will be totally cool with only getting signed off on what they did, but the helicopter parents will fight you on it.  You are denying the boy anything, you are working with him to do the right thing.

[Jameson76]

11 minutes ago, robhixkg said:

Good afternoon all,

I am processing our troop summer camp advancements and I have some questions.

First let me state, I am aware the guide to advancement state that once a requirement is signed off we cannot take it back.  I am guessing this goes for merit badges as well as rank requirements.  

Second, let me say I absolutely loathe the fact that BSA speaks out of both sides of their mouth on some things.  They state that the requirements must be done as written then do not require the camps to abide by this requirement.  I know some things cannot be done at camp.  That should be documented in the camp materials, the merit badge completed as a partial and then move on.  The scout should have to finish that up away from camp.

This leave me wondering what to do in situations where I know a requirement could not have been completed at camp. 

First case, the camping merit badge, requirement 4b states:

I cannot see this being done at camp, yet I have a camp saying that scouts have completed it. What can I do in situations like this?

Second question, the scouts in our troop that were doing the camping merit badge had to have the Scoutmaster verify their camping nights for requirement 9a.  Since our Scoutmaster did not have access to their camping records, he would not sign this, promising to follow-up after getting back from camp.  Yay scoutmaster and camp on this one.  One of our scouts, not getting a scoutmaster signature for completion, went to his dad and got him to sign for the requirement.  Dad was at summer camp.  Dad is not a registered merit badge counselor for anything!  However, the scouts records come back from camp showing that he completed the camping merit badge.  On this one, I think I can deny it simply on the fact that the camping night verification did not have a valid signature on it.  Can I deny him completion on this?  If not, what are my options, if any?

Thanks for any help you can give.

The camping records couple of points - 

The "leader" is not the MB counselor but nor is he signing off on the requirements, he is merely stating that 20 nights were fulfilled.  Whether or not he should have done that is anther questions

On the camping records, odd the SM has to "access" the camping records.  He has the Scout in front of him and hopefully the SM can remember what outings the troop attends.  Hopefully the Scout can recall which of these he attened. 

We get this each year at camp.  Typically we have the conversation with the Scout.  You went to summer camp two years ago, 6 nights.  Tell me some campouts, then they tally them up.  Takes about 5 minutes, send them on their way.  Some (but not many) may actually have used the log in their handbooks (I know...shocked face)

[Eagle94-A1]

Guide to Advancment, found here, https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf has this to say:

 

7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges

 

From time to time, it may be discovered that merit badges could not actually have been earned. For example, a Scout who returns from summer camp or a merit badge fair with signed blue cards for an extraordinary number of badges could raise concerns. If, after consulting with those involved in the merit badge program—such as an event coordinator, the camp director, or a merit badge counselor—it becomes plainly evident that a youth could not have actually and personally fulfilled requirements as written, then the limited recourse outlined below is available. It may result in a decision that some or all of the requirements for a badge could not have been fulfilled, and thus, that the badge was not actually earned.

 

After such a consultation, the unit leader, in a positive environment similar to that of a unit leader conference,discusses with the Scout the circumstances under which a merit badge in question was approved. A parent or an assistant unit leader should attend as an observer. The young man shall not be retested on the requirements, but a conversation with him can reveal if he was present  at the class and actually and personally fulfilled all the requirements. Such a discussion could cover who taught a class, what sort of activities took place, where and when they occurred, how testing was done, what the Scout might have brought home from the class, and other similar process-oriented details.

 

In most cases, with a fair and friendly approach, a young man who did not complete the requirements will admit it. Short of this, however, if it remains clear under the circumstances that some or all of the requirements could not have been met, then the merit badge is not reported or awarded, and does not count toward advancement. The unit leader then offers the name of at least one other merit badge counselor through whom any incomplete requirements may be finished. Note that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away” because, although signed off, it was never actually earned.

 

Just as we avoid penalizing Scouts for the mistakes of adults, it should be a rare occurrence that a unit leader finds the need to question whether merit badges have been earned. This procedure for recourse is limited and reserved only for clear and evident cases of noncompletion or nonparticipation. For example, the recourse could be allowed when it would not have been possible to complete a specific requirement at the location of the class, event, or camp; if time available was not sufficient—perhaps due to class size or other factors—for the counselor to observe that each Scout personally and actually completed all the requirements; if time available was insufficient for a “calendar” requirement such as for Personal Fitness or Personal Management; or if multiple merit badges in question were scheduled at the same time.

 

This procedure is not to be viewed as an opportunity for retesting on requirements, for interjecting another set of standards over those of a merit badge counselor, or for debating issues such as whether a Scout was strong enough, mature enough, or old enough to have completed requirement

Unit leaders who find it necessary to make use of this recourse must act quickly—if possible, within 30 days of discovery. It is inappropriate to delay a Scout’s advancement with anything less than a prompt decision. If a Scout or his parent or guardian believes a unit leader has incorrectly determined a Scout has not earned a merit badge, or more than 30 days have passed without a reasonable explanation for the lack of a decision, they should address their concerns with the unit committee. They should first, however, develop a thorough understanding of the merit badge requirements and that each one must be passed exactly as it is set forth.

 

Upon encountering any merit badge program where BSA standards are not upheld, unit leaders are strongly encouraged to report the incident to the council advancement committee, preferably using the form found in the appendix (see “Reporting Merit Badge Counseling Concerns,” 11.1.0.0)

 

 

Now all that cut, pasted, and edited to make it smoother, Jameson76 stated it correctly. talking to the Scout should give you an adequate feel if they completed hte number of nights or not. And if they are recording it in the log in the HB, even better.

 

Now dad signing off is a red flag for me, but that is because of my unit. Parents are not allowed to  sign off on any requirements except in a very few circumstances, i.e. Family Life MB, parent is an MBC and working WITH A GROUP ( emphasis) that their son is in. One of the biggest reasons for that was an incident where mom signed off on EVERYTHING between Tenderfoot and First Class, and it was not caught until after his BOR.

[MattR]

Ask the scouts. They'll tell the truth. The camp staff will just say they covered everything. My example is pioneering mb. Very few counselors can do the splices yet they all sign it off. I learned the splices years ago when the counselor asked for help in teaching it. He knew the splices, taught us, and we worked with the scouts. It's a one on one thing to teach. Every camp I go to I ask if they need help with this and the answer is usually no.

A few weeks ago I went to my local camp just to ask about how things are going. One of the visiting adults said it was great, the staff is judged on how many MBs are completed, so scouts are getting lots. I pointed out the conflict of interest. But this is another thread that's been beaten to death ....

[Hawkwin]

Not to be a pedant but why is this not possible at camp?

Quote

Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout, including creating the duty roster, menu planning, equipment needs, general planning, and setting up camp.

It doesn't state that the actual campout has to occur or even that the scouts actually camp after setting up camp.

To me, this seems very much like the difference between the Webelos Castaway #1C:

Using tree limbs or branches that have already fallen or been cut, build a shelter that will protect you overnight.

And the Wilderness Survival MB #8:

Improvise a natural shelter. For the purpose of this demonstration, use techniques that have little negative impact on the environment. Spend a night in your shelter.

 

Both requirements are essentially the same but the later requires that you actually spend a night in the shelter.

In reading the actual text of the Camping Merit Badge, it is very similar to Castaway, and not Wilderness Survival.

 

Quote

 

4B. Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout, including creating the duty

roster, menu planning, equipment needs, general planning, and setting up camp.

 Duty roster,

 Menu planning,

 Equipment needs,

 General planning,

 Setting up camp.

 

It does not appear that an actual campout need occur. This seems to be a reasonable requirement that could be completed at camp.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Hawkwin
while-why

[HashTagScouts]

1 minute ago, Hawkwin said:

Not to be a pedant but while is this not possible at camp?

It doesn't state that the actual campout has to occur or even that the scouts actually camp after setting up camp.

To me, this seems very much like the difference between the Webelos Castaway #1C:

Using tree limbs or branches that have already fallen or been cut, build a shelter that will protect you overnight.

And the Wilderness Survival MB #8:

Improvise a natural shelter. For the purpose of this demonstration, use techniques that have little negative impact on the environment. Spend a night in your shelter.

 

Both requirements are essentially the same but the later requires that you actually spend a night in the shelter.

In reading the actual text of the Camping Merit Badge, it is very similar to Castaway, and not Wilderness Survival.

 

It does not appear that an actual campout need occur. This seems to be a reasonable requirement that could be completed at camp.

 

The requirement also does not state it must be "a Scout patrol from your troop" - stick 4 Scouts together that are working on the Mb together at camp, and you have a Scout patrol.

[Hawkwin]

31 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Parents are not allowed to  sign off on any requirements except in a very few circumstances, i.e. Family Life MB, parent is an MBC and working WITH A GROUP ( emphasis) that their son is in.

To the best of my knowledge, I don't think you can limit a parent that is an MBC from signing off on a card. The council can set higher standards for applicants to be a MBC but once approved, family relation or status is not a prohibiting factor:

 

Quote

 

Approved counselors may work with and pass

any member, including their own son, ward, or relative.

 

Scoutmasters have to grant them (scoutmasters cannot refuse to provide a card) and unless you think that there was some sort of fraud committed*, scoutmasters have to accept completed cards.

*Reported via Reporting Merit Badge Counseling Concerns Form

[Saltface]

12 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

 

It does not appear that an actual campout need occur. This seems to be a reasonable requirement that could be completed at camp.

 

4B. Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout...

If you're not creating actual plans that you expect to be fulfilled (fairly sharing the division of labor, making food you're actually interested in eating, etc.), what's the point in creating the roster sheet?

[Hawkwin]

2 minutes ago, Saltface said:

If you're not creating actual plans that you expect to be fulfilled (fairly sharing the division of labor, making food you're actually interested in eating, etc.), what's the point in creating the roster sheet?

Practice.

Crawl Walk Run.

I create "actual plans" all the time for things that are never fulfilled. It is called "Be Prepared."

There are many MBs that require the scout to perform drills or practice something without actually doing it. Additionally, if this MB required a scout to participate in the actual camp out after planning it, then it could easily state it, just like we see with the Backpacking MB:
 

Quote

 

9. Do the following:

a. Write a plan that includes a schedule for a patrol/crew backpacking hike.

b. Conduct a prehike inspection of the patrol and its equipment.

 c. Show that you know how to properly pack your personal gear and your share of the crew’s gear and food.

 d. Show you can properly shoulder your pack and adjust it for proper wear.

 e. While using the plan you developed for requirement 9a, carry your fully loaded pack, to complete a hike of at least 2

miles.

 

Absent 9e, a scout could do all of the planning and prep of #9 without actually backpacking.

The specific requirement of Camping mentioned above does not state that the scout must camp using any of the plans they developed.

[Saltface]

15 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Practice.

Crawl Walk Run.

I create "actual plans" all the time for things that are never fulfilled. It is called "Be Prepared."

There are many MBs that require the scout to perform drills or practice something without actually doing it. Additionally, if this MB required a scout to participate in the actual camp out after planning it, then it could easily state it, just like we see with the Backpacking MB:
 

Absent 9e, a scout could do all of the planning and prep of #9 without actually backpacking.

The specific requirement of Camping mentioned above does not state that the scout must camp using any of the plans they developed.

How would you define the word actual?

[T2Eagle]

In answer to your main question: what to do, the best answer is the one given a few times already, talk to the scout.  The scouts know what they did and did not do; they do not know what the poor, sleep deprived, camp staff member filled out at 4pm on a sweltering Friday afternoon.  It's rare that the scout will be upset by the conversation.

On the specific requirements, for 4b that requirement doesn't have to have been done at camp in order for it to have been fulfilled or for the MBC to legitimately sign off on it.  When I'm counseling this mb I'll ask the scout if they've done it, and if they can describe a time when they have that fulfills it for me.  Most of my mb mentees are in my own troop so I know what opportunities there have been to do this sort of thing and know when they're describing something that wold have taken place.

On the camping nights, it's a straightforward question, has the scout camped the 20 nights or not.  Check his records, if he has the nights then his mb is good; if you're concerned about the father signing the sheet that might be a nice friendly conversation to have if you would rather he didn't do it.  On the other hand, if someone signs off on a straightforward objective question that he knows to be true that seems kosher.  After all, it's not a hard or complicated question, how would I not know whether or not my kid slept in a tent 20 times?

[fred johnson]

10 hours ago, Saltface said:

4B. Help a Scout patrol or a Webelos Scout unit in your area prepare for an actual campout...

If the scout has anywhere near 20 nights camping, the scout has helped a patrol setup a duty roster, create a menu plan, deal with gear, etc.  It's part of scout camping.

  

11 hours ago, robhixkg said:

Second question, the scouts in our troop that were doing the camping merit badge had to have the Scoutmaster verify their camping nights for requirement 9a.  Since our Scoutmaster did not have access to their camping records, he would not sign this, promising to follow-up after getting back from camp.  Yay scoutmaster and camp on this one.  One of our scouts, not getting a scoutmaster signature for completion, went to his dad and got him to sign for the requirement.  Dad was at summer camp.  Dad is not a registered merit badge counselor for anything!  However, the scouts records come back from camp showing that he completed the camping merit badge.  On this one, I think I can deny it simply on the fact that the camping night verification did not have a valid signature on it.  Can I deny him completion on this?  If not, what are my options, if any?

Scoutmaster's don't sign off on the camping nights.  As such, why not trust a parent's word.  I'd be tempted to trust it.  IMHO, the counselor should be asking for a list or trust the scout.  

Plus, if I was the scoutmaster, I'd be sitting with the scout and asking him to tell me his camp outs to see if he's at 20 nights.  There is absolutely no need to use a formal database.  In fact, it's adversarial and subverts building a healthy relationship with the scouts.  

 

I'd be very careful taking this to the scout and asking him what he thinks.  If there is fraud or just out write lying, that's different.  But in this case, the issue is between a member of the troop committee doing advancement and the camp staff working as counselors.  I'd keep it at that level and not make it an issue with the scout.  

Plus, I think it's inherently unfair to the scout.  It's a major power imbalance.  Even if the adult leaders think they are speaking nice, the scouts will take it harder than you think.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

17 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

To the best of my knowledge, I don't think you can limit a parent that is an MBC from signing off on a card. The council can set higher standards for applicants to be a MBC but once approved, family relation or status is not a prohibiting factor:

Units cannot add or subtract from advancement requirements. SMs do select whom the Scout sees as an MBC. We have had challenges on both ends of the spectrum when it came to parents singing off. We had one parent who just gave advancement away like  it was Cub Scouts. And we had one parent who was expecting more from their Scout than other Scouts. Besides one reason for the MBC is Adult Association, to get them use to working with multiple adults. And sadly in my neck of the woods, approximately 95% of the MBCs will only work with their units. Only folks in my district who are willing to work with any youth are several of the MBCs from my unit, and 3 or 4 others.

[scotteg83]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Units cannot add or subtract from advancement requirements. SMs do select whom the Scout sees as an MBC. We have had challenges on both ends of the spectrum when it came to parents singing off. We had one parent who just gave advancement away like  it was Cub Scouts. And we had one parent who was expecting more from their Scout than other Scouts. Besides one reason for the MBC is Adult Association, to get them use to working with multiple adults. And sadly in my neck of the woods, approximately 95% of the MBCs will only work with their units. Only folks in my district who are willing to work with any youth are several of the MBCs from my unit, and 3 or 4 others.

 

SM signs blue cards allowing Scout to start the merit badge, but I don't see how they control who the councilor is.