NATIONAL POLICY: AOL and Crossover Ceremonies

[John-in-KC]

See link below.   There are some links to the AOL Ceremony and the crossover ceremony  

All other threads will be locked forthwith. 

It will be a discussion topic at NOAC.

https://oa-bsa.org/article/official-arrow-light-and-crossover-ceremonies

Edited July 25, 2018 by John-in-KC

[John-in-KC]

Remember our Cheerful Service and the Scout Law when discussing this. 

[shortridge]

(I was trying to respond in the other thread to some comments about consulting the membership on this. I hope it’s OK to continue that particular conversation in this thread; mods, if it’s not, just delete, thanks.)

Each lodge sends delegates to elect the section chief. The section chiefs elect the national chief and vice-chief, who represent the youth membership on the national committee.

If you want to influence National OA policy, then you have to start at the lodge level and make sure that your officers and especially the lodge chief represent your views and are going to elect people at the section and national level who do the same.

Or if you’re an adult, sit back, relax, grab a cuppa, and trust the youth to make the right decisions.

I’m not a huge fan of this turn of events (especially the execution of the new crossover script), but I haven’t been in the room during the discussions; I haven’t heard from the tribes and nations; I know that the picture nationally is far more complex than I can see from my little corner; and I’m not a voting youth member any more, so I really don’t have a voice. I’m going to trust those Scouts under 21 who are our leaders today.

The outward trappings of regalia and ceremonies don’t make an Arrowman an Arrowman. Brotherhood, cheerfulness and service do. We’ve adapted before and we’ll continue to adapt and thrive.

 

edit: Sorry, I have no idea why the text is so large. I’m not trying to shout, I promise!

Edited July 25, 2018 by shortridge

[HashTagScouts]

Terrible place we have come to.  As a Native American, I had no issue with the ceremonies, when done respectfully and the ceremonialists treated it as such.

This new crossover script is corny as heck, and I don't see many kids jumping up and volunteering to use it.  

I absolutely don't think the Lodges should take on any part in carrying these ceremonies out at all, it has no connection at all to the OA, and wearing a sash for it is IMHO an inappropriate event to wear the sash now.  

 

[Eagle94-A1]

36 minutes ago, shortridge said:

(I was trying to respond in the other thread to some comments about consulting the membership on this. I hope it’s OK to continue that particular conversation in this thread; mods, if it’s not, just delete, thanks.)

Each lodge sends delegates to elect the section chief. The section chiefs elect the national chief and vice-chief, who represent the youth membership on the national committee.

If you want to influence National OA policy, then you have to start at the lodge level and make sure that your officers and especially the lodge chief represent your views and are going to elect people at the section and national level who do the same.

Or if you’re an adult, sit back, relax, grab a cuppa, and trust the youth to make the right decisions.

Looking at list of the Executive Committee you provided, only 3 members have (y) behind their names. And of the three, only the national chief and vice-chief are current officers. None of the 4 region chiefs are listed.

It appears to me that the youth are NOT being truly represented. It appears to me a bunch of "Old Fogeys" like myself are making the decisions, instead of sitting back, drinking a cup of joe ot hot chocolate, and trusting the youth to make the right decisions.

[Oldscout448]

I have little contact with my lodge leadership,  most of the adults seem to be lawers or business executives, it is Washington DC. after all, and a blue collar guy just doesn't fit in.  But from what I have gleaned over the years, the advisers are the ones calling the shots.  The votes the youth take are mostly formalities, the important decisions have already been made, and the youth are told in advance what the correct decision will be.  

[Eagle94-A1]

10 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

I have little contact with my lodge leadership,  most of the adults seem to be lawers or business executives, it is Washington DC. after all, and a blue collar guy just doesn't fit in.  But from what I have gleaned over the years, the advisers are the ones calling the shots.  The votes the youth take are mostly formalities, the important decisions have already been made, and the youth are told in advance what the correct decision will be.  

I remember one time my lodge took a vote to change the lodge bylaws. The changes were pushed by a few adults, including the LA. When the lodge as a whole voted against the measures that were proposed, the LA told everyone in attendance that he didn't care what the youth wanted, the suggestion for the change came from national, and the lodge was changing regardless. Many Arrowman, youth and adult, wore their sashes inside out or took them off in protest.

So yes, I see this decision being made by the adults, and not hte youth.

[hikeoholic]

1 hour ago, HashTagScouts said:

Terrible place we have come to.  As a Native American, I had no issue with the ceremonies, when done respectfully and the ceremonialists treated it as such.

This new crossover script is corny as heck, and I don't see many kids jumping up and volunteering to use it.  

I absolutely don't think the Lodges should take on any part in carrying these ceremonies out at all, it has no connection at all to the OA, and wearing a sash for it is IMHO an inappropriate event to wear the sash now.  

 

I agree that the provided ceremony has no connection to the OA whatsoever, this is a script that the pack leaders or any Troop could carry out.  

The only part I like about it is that at least 5 of the scouts have a part in it. 

[walk in the woods]

LIkely only tangential, but, curious.  I went to FB to see what the discussion looked like there.  At the top of the OA page is a video called the Original Induction Experience.  Foreshadowing perhaps or just part of NOAC?  Maybe both?

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I remember one time my lodge took a vote to change the lodge bylaws. The changes were pushed by a few adults, including the LA. When the lodge as a whole voted against the measures that were proposed, the LA told everyone in attendance that he didn't care what the youth wanted, the suggestion for the change came from national, and the lodge was changing regardless. Many Arrowman, youth and adult, wore their sashes inside out or took them off in protest.

So yes, I see this decision being made by the adults, and not hte youth.

I have met the current National Vice-Chief.  When this topic came up in conversation (it's been no secret it was being discussed, and I had hear an announcement was coming at NOAC), he said nothing in support of it and wanted to change the topic of conversation quickly. 

 

Based on the conversations that my son has relayed that are going on amongst the summer camp staff this week, I don't believe the youth were in support of this measure at all, or had any say in it.

[Oldscout448]

4 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I have met the current National Vice-Chief.  When this topic came up in conversation (it's been no secret it was being discussed, and I had hear an announcement was coming at NOAC), he said nothing in support of it and wanted to change the topic of conversation quickly. 

 

Based on the conversations that my son has relayed that are going on amongst the summer camp staff this week, I don't believe the youth were in support of this measure at all, or had any say in it.

If they announce at NOAC that regalia is soon to be banned,  I hope that a large number of arrowmen have the guts to walk up up the podium and drop their sashes at the speakers feet before walking out in protest.     Oh, and live stream it to youtube.

[highcountry]

Eagle 94 lamented in the other thread on a WDL who was disappointed her younger scouts would not get to have the same crossover experience as her old scouts got to enjoy. There is a solution for this...."hire out" the ceremony.

Our local pack used 2 types of ceremonies over the years that I saw it, sometimes thy brought in a local guy named the Mountain Man"....he was not a member of the BSA but did a fine crossover ceremony the cubs all enjoyed. Sometimes they had the OA chapter come in and do the crossover with all the Indian Regalia.

So I suggest a pack that wants the OA style crossover with Regalia do so as a side agreement, much like the area pack that brought in the mountain man. Have the OA ceremony team come in as an "Independent group"  no regalia, no official mention of the OA lodge or chapter, do the ceremony as thy have done. As far as anyone is concerned, they are not OA they are an outside "Club" that agreed to do the ceremony, by weird coincidence the all just happen to be OA lodge members. Keep District and council out of it, keep communication low key and just get it done. This unaffiliated group may suggest the pack make a donation somewhere...perhaps even to some local OA lodge they have had good experience with.

District our council never had an issue with the local pack using the mountain man, district people were in attendance a few times. Nothing wrong with an outside group being brought in to do a crossover, just happens this is a local Indian re-inacting group. I doubt there would be much trouble, it isn't like you are bringing in exotic dancers to do the crossover. Keep it low key and fly under the radar, no sense in bring attention from council or district to make peoples lives more difficult.

 

 

[mashmaster]

6 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

If they announce at NOAC that regalia is soon to be banned,  I hope that a large number of arrowmen have the guts to walk up up the podium and drop their sashes at the speakers feet before walking out in protest.     Oh, and live stream it to youtube.

Frankly, I am disappointed about not being able to use regailia for Arrow of Light ceremonies and probably more in the future.  But to me that isn't the purpose and reason we are in OA.  It is a tool that OA currently uses to help serve its purpose but it isn't the purpose.  I would think that most people with Native American decent would not have problems with how OA uses the themes but I am sure there are those that dislike it.  I am also sure that some ceremony teams disrespect native american cultures which is sad.

I would be much more disappointed if a large group of Arrowmen dropped their sashed because of regalia alone, it would send the message to me that they are not in OA for the right reasons.

Just my opinion which I am sure many will disagree with.

[Eagle94-A1]

4 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

I would be much more disappointed if a large group of Arrowmen dropped their sashed because of regalia alone, it would send the message to me that they are not in OA for the right reasons.

 

What if they dropped their sashes to protest an executive committee comprised of 3 youth, approximately 57 adult volunteers, and 6 professionals making a decision  for what is suppose to be a YOUTH LED organization and had 0 input from its membership. At least BSA did town halls when they made the girls decision, although they won't publish the memberships' results.

[mashmaster]

35 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

What if they dropped their sashes to protest an executive committee comprised of 3 youth, approximately 57 adult volunteers, and 6 professionals making a decision  for what is suppose to be a YOUTH LED organization and had 0 input from its membership. At least BSA did town halls when they made the girls decision, although they won't publish the memberships' results.

I would rather them protest the solution by reaching out to work with the executive committee to help come to a compromise rather than quit.