Denied a court of honor.

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, malraux said:

... I would assume that "at college and can't get the time for the BoR till October" is a pretty legitimate reason for this but there should have been a process that was followed. I would want to be sure that someone at the troop isn't covering themselves for failing to do that correctly. (note: I'm only familiar with Cub Scouts currently so I might be misunderstanding how things actually work at the Scouting BSA level). 

So now the delay in ECOH makes some sense in that if the BoR wasn't until after he started in college in the fall, I would assume that he was unable to schedule a convenient time prior to that. I still feel like there's a fair amount missing from the story as we have heard.

Sounds to me like whatever hoops needed to be jumped through were done so successfully. The award kit is in the scout's hands.

To me,  the buck is stopping at the committee. There could be some sour grapes because the boy pushed the deadlines, and that's where there may be more to the story. But, that's not particularly relevant.

What is relevant? When the troop gets into the habit of providing space, time, every scout in uniform, honor guard, etc ... for every ECoH, families feel entitled to that. Then committees feel like they need to govern it. Letting adults run around with scissors making rules ... sooner or later someone's gonna get hurt!

[Mich08212]

Yes the buck is stopping with the committee and I have a sneaky suspicion I know what the situation is about and may have to contact a lawyer. And yes I will do that if necessary.

My son didnt push deadlines.  Following the guidance of the troop leaders that took forever in assisting him along the way as promised.

I only feel entitled because every s i n g l e scout who has made eagle has gotten a ECOH.  And my son? Not? 

They can have the reigns when governing it.  They usually do.

[Mich08212]

In my case for my son, The Eagle BOR was done in October.  His 18th birthday was June 9th. His project was completed  a week before his birthday.  He got the paperwork in on his birthday done and complete. 

I remember it well.  It was October. Cant be sure of exact date but maybe it was the 22nd. or some facsimile there of. We dropped him off and prayed like all parents do..lol   Picked him up at the library where they held it. And once we did, thats when we found out he passed.

 

So from that moment on, we waited to find out about the ECOH. And waited and waited.  My son contacted them about it letting them know the head Commissioner of the free masons (who happens to be his grandfather) wanted to speak for my son at his COH as he has done with other Eagles for the troop.  My son gave them the info so they can assure that he would be speaking.

And we waited.

So, with that said, just a week ago or so, the SM told him they had to talk and thats when the SM told my son that he was denied ECOH. quote unquote. That was his words exactly and said that he wasnt privy to the reason why.  SM gave my son his medal, buttons and certificate then.

 

What do you mean OP lurking?

[Eagle94-A1]

3 minutes ago, Mich08212 said:

What do you mean OP lurking?

It sounded a few posts ago that you were leaving the forum. I was hoping that you were still around reading, but not posting. Lurking is the term for that.

.

 

[Mich08212]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

After 90 days, there needs to be a petition to national explaining why the BOR could not have been held prior to the 90 days. If that post 90 day paperwork was not completed and approved by national prior to the EBOR, IT IS NOT A VALID EBOR! That may be the issue. Someone screwed up, did the EBOR after the 90n day deadline and did not have approval.

 

Had that happen to one of my Eagles. If the OP is lurking, please PM. I have some experience in this type of matter.

 

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

After 90 days, there needs to be a petition to national explaining why the BOR could not have been held prior to the 90 days. If that post 90 day paperwork was not completed and approved by national prior to the EBOR, IT IS NOT A VALID EBOR! That may be the issue. Someone screwed up, did the EBOR after the 90n day deadline and did not have approval.

 

Had that happen to one of my Eagles. If the OP is lurking, please PM. I have some experience in this type of matter.

 

4 hours ago, malraux said:

To follow up on myself and rereading the thread, it looks like the BoR in October. With a June birthday, this means that the BoR happened in the 3-6 month window after turning 18, which should have involved additional paperwork. I would assume that "at college and can't get the time for the BoR till October" is a pretty legitimate reason for this but there should have been a process that was followed. I would want to be sure that someone at the troop isn't covering themselves for failing to do that correctly. (note: I'm only familiar with Cub Scouts currently so I might be misunderstanding how things actually work at the Scouting BSA level).

So now the delay in ECOH makes some sense in that if the BoR wasn't until after he started in college in the fall, I would assume that he was unable to schedule a convenient time prior to that. I still feel like there's a fair amount missing from the story as we have heard.

Actually, my son wasnt at college.   He was in college here at home and not away.

Nope, nothing missing from the story. Thats about it.

june 9th 18th birthday. paperwork in complete. waited for EBOR.

October EBOR. My son was not away at college. he goes to community college. Hes home. So no reason for a time lapse for EBOR>

found out JUly there will be no ECOH.

 

[Mich08212]

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

It sounded a few posts ago that you were leaving the forum. I was hoping that you were still around reading, but not posting. Lurking is the term for that.

.

 

LOL oh ok..  Yes Ive been lurking..lol

The reason for that is I did call a council member who did call me back  etc etc but he hasnt returned my call.

And the SM replied to my email last week apologizing for not getting back and he will reply with his thoughts but still havent heard back from anyone.

Which is of course making me more suspicious and angry

[Mich08212]

22 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

I think there are two ways to do a Court of Honor for an Eagle Scout. 

One: Have the Eagle Scout rank awarded during a Troop Court of honor. Maybe have the Scout say a few words, his parents, a troop adult of his choice. 10 minutes or so. 

Two: Have the Eagle Scout and family plan a separate Eagle Scout court of honor. They can have it be whatever they want and invite whomever they want. It can be as long or short as they'd like. 

One thing I do know. We have between 3-12 Scouts a year earn Eagle. Nobody on the Committee or the Scoutmasters/Assistant Scoutmasters has the time to plan that many extra court of honor, nor should it fall on the SPL. The Eagle Scout and his parents are the logical choice if they want a separate event. 

To the OP: plan a separate event for with your son, invite his friends, the troop and the troop leadership to attend. Be happy and celebrate his accomplishment, and don't worry about what the Troop adults do or don't do. 

My question to that is how?

When the chief of police speaks and legislation comes to speak and recognition from higher ups the the POTUS...

These are all the things that happen at a ECOH.  As well as the recipient of the Eagle project is there to collect any money left over from the project. People are thanked.  How would I put together something like that when I have no idea how to contact the POTUS etc etc.  That is the job of the Troop leaders that have done it for every other boy who has reached eagle in this troop.

[Mich08212]

On 7/18/2018 at 1:43 PM, perdidochas said:

You are probably right. In my sons' troop there were three options for a ECOH. The first was simply a ceremony as part of the planned (usually quarterly) COH, with nothing special other than that. (we never had one of these, but it was allowed).  The second is like the above, but the parents of the Eagle provided refreshments, and there was a bit more done. (this was fairly commonly done, especially with 18+ year olds). The third is a special ECOH planned by the Eagle and his parents.  (most common option).  Most of the troop and leaders would show up to this.

 

I feel that the OP is not telling us the whole story if he keeps having these discrimination ideas.  As others have asked. If you think your son is being discriminated against, what do you think he is being discriminated against for? What reason?

Here is what I want to answer on and cant find a way to do it so Im copying and pasting.

This all sounds a bit weird to me. If I were to guess what is happening I would say that someone on the committee for scoutmaster or other powerful individual in The Troop decided that The Troop should not take the time and expense to plan a court of honor 4 an 18 year old who has been out of the troop and not active in the unit since aging  out a year ago. Scoutmaster then goes to insinuate the decision came from Council and the truth is just following that.

Is it reasonable or correct for a troop to make such a decision? I don't know for sure. Perhaps there are Financial and time restrictions on the troop that they feel the cost and time and Personnel Resources required for a court of honor are not in the overall interest or capability of the troop at this point. If this is the case I still cannot believe that the actions taken are appropriate. A better line of action might be to explain the Troop resource constraints and ask for the scout or his family to take on more of the planning or financial responsibilities of putting on the court of honor. The other option would be to offer to present and recognize the Eagle at a normal troop court of honor and if the Scout or family wanted more than it was up to them to go above and beyond that.

  Now for my response.

yes, obviously its someone of power making the decision.

Next, Its not about time or expense here.

My son finished everything on his 18th birthday June 9th. Complete. BOR was in October. Next is ECOH.  Like e v e r y other boy in the troop, most dont finish till their 18th BD.  then BOR then a ECOH. all in timely fashion for everyone.... well except my son.

With that said. THEY WILL NOT give my son a reason for this. Regardless, they should give my son a reason,. and FYI:  they just had a court of honor for a boy who just made eagle.. so I say... ITS NOT FINANCIAL>

 

[NJCubScouter]

43 minutes ago, Mich08212 said:

How would I put together something like that when I have no idea how to contact the POTUS etc etc.

Check out this page:  http://usscouts.org/eagle/eaglecongrats.asp

[qwazse]

@Mich08212, here's what's weird to me (and I think most of us who are Eagle scouts): the last thing we would ever do is wait for some committee to plan this thing. Not to sound too much like The Little Red Hen but when I did mine:

• I got the date from the church to reserve the hall.
• I let the troop know when it was happening.
• I invited the speakers.
• I asked scouts if they would participate.
• I asked the SM if he would do his usual shtick.
• I stuffed the invites and addressed the envelopes (typed, I think, triple spaced).
• Mama and her friends on the women's auxiliary made cookies and punch.
• I typed up the program (can't remember who paid for the copies).
• A friend (sister to two of our scouts) inserted a poem she wrote herself - that was the only thing I didn't ask someone to do, and a pleasant surprise.
• Well, the president's letter ... no clue who requisitioned that.

My sons' were more complicated affairs linked to HS graduation parties, so their were more hoops to jump through as a family. But ... we did not wait for some stinking committee's rubber stamp. Guests, leaders, and scouts could show up (or not) as they wish. If the committee wouldn't approve, we wouldn't care because, well, we were Eagle scouts and could lite our own fires. Deny us matches, and we had flint and steel (not stainless) blades, deny us that, we have a lens, deny that, batteries (even back in my day there were a few lying around). We didn't fight for our right to party, we just partied.

I'm really sorry your troop culture has turned sour. But, don't throw your dimes down on a lawyer. You don't need one. Your son has his scout buddies and his college buddies and his family. He can do this whenever he pleases. Invite whomever he pleases: granddad, SM, maybe even you!

If the committee complains, give them a name of that lawyer you were going see. Tell them they can spend their $$s demanding your son to cease and desist vs. you demanding them to permit.

[MikeS72]

1 hour ago, Mich08212 said:

My son finished everything on his 18th birthday June 9th. Complete. BOR was in October. Next is ECOH.  Like e v e r y other boy in the troop, most dont finish till their 18th BD.  then BOR then a ECOH. all in timely fashion for everyone.... well except my son.

I have read through this entire thread, and waited for a little more information before hazarding a guess as to what the problem here may have been.

Your comment that his 18th birthday was June 9th means that unless a specific request for an EBOR past September 9th was filed, that would be the most likely reason for any denial.  That denial would not be for an ECOH, but of the Eagle application itself.  You have stated that the SM gave him a plastic bag with his Eagle medal and patch.  Did he also receive an actual, legitimate, Eagle certificate from BSA?  As was stated earlier by @Eagle94-A1, if the EBOR was more than 90 days past his 18th birthday and the proper extension paperwork was not filed, someone may not want to admit to that oversight.  If that is the case, I would hope that it could be worked out, especially if someone in the troop or district is the one who neglected to file the paperwork, rather than your son being the one who did not file.

I look forward to hearing what you are able to find out, and what the final resolution may be.

[Mich08212]

53 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Check out this page:  http://usscouts.org/eagle/eaglecongrats.asp

Thats absolutely wonderful.   Can you supply me with example letters that some sends to these people?

And anything else like a ECOH ceremony script etc etc

[Mich08212]

12 minutes ago, qwazse said:

@Mich08212, here's what's weird to me (and I think most of us who are Eagle scouts): the last thing we would ever do is wait for some committee to plan this thing. Not to sound too much like The Little Red Hen but when I did mine:

• I got the date from the church to reserve the hall.
• I let the troop know when it was happening.
• I invited the speakers.
• I asked scouts if they would participate.
• I asked the SM if he would do his usual shtick.
• I stuffed the invites and addressed the envelopes (typed, I think, triple spaced).
• Mama and her friends on the women's auxiliary made cookies and punch.
• I typed up the program (can't remember who paid for the copies).
• A friend (sister to two of our scouts) inserted a poem she wrote herself - that was the only thing I didn't ask someone to do, and a pleasant surprise.
• Well, the president's letter ... no clue who requisitioned that.

My sons' were more complicated affairs linked to HS graduation parties, so their were more hoops to jump through as a family. But ... we did not wait for some stinking committee's rubber stamp. Guests, leaders, and scouts could show up (or not) as they wish. If the committee wouldn't approve, we wouldn't care because, well, we were Eagle scouts and could lite our own fires. Deny us matches, and we had flint and steel (not stainless) blades, deny us that, we have a lens, deny that, batteries (even back in my day there were a few lying around). We didn't fight for our right to party, we just partied.

I'm really sorry your troop culture has turned sour. But, don't throw your dimes down on a lawyer. You don't need one. Your son has his scout buddies and his college buddies and his family. He can do this whenever he pleases. Invite whomever he pleases: granddad, SM, maybe even you!

If the committee complains, give them a name of that lawyer you were going see. Tell them they can spend their $$s demanding your son to cease and desist vs. you demanding them to permit.

I absolutely LOVE this reply.  Thank you so much.

You are 100% RIGHT>   an Eagle doesnt need anyone to toot his own horn. I am thankful for this.

I have a list of address such as the POTUS, governor etc. Just wanna see an example letter of what someone would write to send to these people.

Considering we do not have ANY addresses for the scout troop (remember the times) everything is internet based. lol 

I will need to write to the SM and make a letter inviting everyone.   I would like a head count so I know how much food or drink to have though.  Ive event planned lots of things like big weddings and graduation parties. This will be a piece of cake.

What kind of speakers did you have?

[Mich08212]

18 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

I have read through this entire thread, and waited for a little more information before hazarding a guess as to what the problem here may have been.

Your comment that his 18th birthday was June 9th means that unless a specific request for an EBOR past September 9th was filed, that would be the most likely reason for any denial.  That denial would not be for an ECOH, but of the Eagle application itself.  You have stated that the SM gave him a plastic bag with his Eagle medal and patch.  Did he also receive an actual, legitimate, Eagle certificate from BSA?  As was stated earlier by @Eagle94-A1, if the EBOR was more than 90 days past his 18th birthday and the proper extension paperwork was not filed, someone may not want to admit to that oversight.  If that is the case, I would hope that it could be worked out, especially if someone in the troop or district is the one who neglected to file the paperwork, rather than your son being the one who did not file.

I look forward to hearing what you are able to find out, and what the final resolution may be.

At this point, I'll probably do my own ECOH.  Just getting addresses and names of scouts in the troop present and past will be difficult because heck.... the world isnt what it was 30 years ago.  lol  I'll have to rely on the SM.

If there was an oversight well, I it wouldnt surprise me with the experience Ive had with the Troop Leaders.

The sad thing is that as a parent I had questions of my own. For crying out ,loud, I never gone through this before and wont again because my son is my only child. When I asked questions they were rude and slow to give them. Even when my son had questions, it was like pulling teeth to get those answered. IDK why.  crazy. immature.

In fact, one of the leaders and FYI, council man, I had a scuffle with because he took such deep offense of me asking "How can we speed up the process" meaning when my son was busting his butt to get things done, they were taking their sweet time to the next meeting or to give him the funds from what he raised to buy the materials for his project. ya know, things like that.

It was a simple question and holy cow this guy blew his lid. I was taken by it. A simple No would have sufficed.

With that said, I believe this guy denied my sons ECOH and thats why we are in this situation.  Gut feelings dont lie

[perdidochas]

2 hours ago, Mich08212 said:

My question to that is how?

When the chief of police speaks and legislation comes to speak and recognition from higher ups the the POTUS...

These are all the things that happen at a ECOH.  As well as the recipient of the Eagle project is there to collect any money left over from the project. People are thanked.  How would I put together something like that when I have no idea how to contact the POTUS etc etc.  That is the job of the Troop leaders that have done it for every other boy who has reached eagle in this troop.

Well, in my two Eagle sons' case, my wife looked up all the appropriate addresses and sent out the requests for recognition from governor, etc.  I contacted our church about using our church family life center.  In the case of one of my buddies', he contacted people he knew to come speak, including the Sheriff.  My oldest son had an OA ceremony for his Eagle.  Both boys had our priest present.  Something happened between your  son and the troop leaders.  I wish you would share it or at least acknowledge it.