Denied a court of honor.

[NJCubScouter]

10 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

The Guide to Advancement is 100 pages long and it doesn't include the Eagle workbook or application.  Gak.  No wonder everybody's lawyered up all the time (no offense @NJCubScouter)

None taken.  I have mentioned a few times that the Guide to Advancement (first published around say 2010-2012) was clearly written as a legal document, by lawyers, and is clearly based on real situations that have reached the National (some of which were probably initiated by parents' lawyers, or parents who are also lawyers.)  Legal fingerprints are all over the thing.  It is probably necessary, but it is disappointing that it is necessary.  The previous incarnation (Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, or something like that) was much simpler, and more simply written.

[Chris1]

This all sounds a bit weird to me. If I were to guess what is happening I would say that someone on the committee for scoutmaster or other powerful individual in The Troop decided that The Troop should not take the time and expense to plan a court of honor 4 an 18 year old who has been out of the troop and not active in the unit since aging  out a year ago. Scoutmaster then goes to insinuate the decision came from Council and the truth is just following that.

Is it reasonable or correct for a troop to make such a decision? I don't know for sure. Perhaps there are Financial and time restrictions on the troop that they feel the cost and time and Personnel Resources required for a court of honor are not in the overall interest or capability of the troop at this point. If this is the case I still cannot believe that the actions taken are appropriate. A better line of action might be to explain the Troop resource constraints and ask for the scout or his family to take on more of the planning or financial responsibilities of putting on the court of honor. The other option would be to offer to present and recognize the Eagle at a normal troop court of honor and if the Scout or family wanted more than it was up to them to go above and beyond that.

[thrifty]

We had a scout turn 18 and Eagle right before he left for college.  There was no time for a ECOH.  He was probably home for holidays and such but it wasn't until the following summer that we honored him with a small ceremony during a regular scheduled meeting.  It was nothing fancy but he seemed happy and it felt right.  He was not active in anyway after turning 18 so we didn't need to do it but he deserved it. 

In our troop, the parents and scout are responsible for most of the ECOH planning.  The troop buys the cake.  I've seen very fancy ECOHs and a simple one.  To each their own but the parents/scout creates the invites and hands them out at the meetings.  The committee is also notified so they can get the cake and put it on the troop calendar.  Troop email reminders are sent out encouraging scouts to attend and some scouts should be there for the description of ranks and flag presentation.  SM usually says a few words along with anyone else.

[scoutldr]

There are too many unexplained incongruences going on here.  And I perceive a terminology problem.  I suspect that when mich first said "council" they meant "troop committee".  A COH should never be denied for "financial or time constraints"...have a potluck...spend a few bucks for paper plates.  Our COH's were always conducted at NO expense to the troop.  And what troop is so active that they can't carve out an hour for a COH?  The allegation of "discrimination" still bothers me, while offering no reason for that perception.  Is the Scout gay?  Black?  Muslim?  Purple? Avowed atheist?   None of those are valid reasons for denying a Scout anything after his  Eagle rank has been approved by National. Were there behavior (Scout Spirit" issues?  If so, then the Eagle SM Conference should have addressed that.  Too many questions.  And, as usual, we are only getting one side of the story.  At this point, my recommendation would be to have your ECOH...plan it yourselves and invite who you want.  THere are plenty of "templates" for ECOH online.  Have your celebration and get on with your lives.  Yes, you and your son deserve an explanation, but I doubt you will get it.  

[prof]

Mich,

I like Thunderbirds advice! Contact

-Scoutmaster

If that doesn't resolve the matter then contact
-Troop Committee Chair

If that doesn't resolve it, contact
-Chartered Organization Representative 

I have a feeling that the matter will be resolved, or at least you will know what the situation is.

Please post and let us know how it turns out!!!!!

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

... The allegation of "discrimination" still bothers me, while offering no reason for that perception.  Is the Scout gay?  Black?  Muslim?  Purple? Avowed atheist?   None of those are valid reasons for denying a Scout anything after his  Eagle rank has been approved by National. ...

Well @scoutldr, how about if he was no longer a scout? As we know, the cut-off date for completing the rank is inherently ageist. Why shouldn't a committee decide that 19 is too old for a party ... especially if the young man was too busy with college to turn in an adult application? (I'm not saying he didn't register, but it seemed clear to me that the OP did not know whether he did or not.)

Would our troop behave that way? Well, I don't know. Certainly if a youth had earned Eagle, but his family suddenly had to relocate to our neighborhood, we would take it upon ourselves to host his ECoH. Heck, depending on the situation, we might conscript Mrs. Q or Son #2 to bake a cake for the kid. We wouldn't tell him that his original troop was obliged to hold a ceremony. If one of our Eagles suddenly transferred to another troop before scheduling his ECoH? I can't imagine us insisting that he have it with his new troop. We'd work together to make it work. Period. But, it's not like we'd feel obliged to do so.

[Jameson76]

There is more going on here that we may know

These are some of key notes from the poster:

• It had been 9 months since becoming eagle.  When he didn’t know what was going on he contacted his SM and when he did his SM wanted to meet with him. 
• At that meeting he was told that he was denied a court of honor and would not give the reasons why.  
• This may be some form of discrimination and if so there is going to be hell to pay.
• He was just notified last night that they are denying the COH for reasons they will not say.
• With that said, they talked at the library last night.  Basically no reason was given for the Denial of the COH. The SM said he did pull for him as well as a top official. He gave him his medal and pins and certificate (in a plastic bag) and that was it.

As has been advised, the COH for Eagle is typically the family.  Not required, though there should be one if the Scout is desires the ceremony.  In our unit we offer advice, have a box of decorations that can be used, etc. and support as needed.  Favorite was one at the Scout's house, then we all watched college football after the ceremony.

Interesting that the poster went quickly to discrimination, mentioned this multiple times, but offered no firm details (even vague ones).  Not sure why one would jump to that conclusion so quickly.  Must be some back story here not being disclosed.  Also the implied issue with some member on the committee/troop on the timeline.  Maybe some history there also.

Sound like the Scout is an Eagle. (That can be confirmed with local council / NESA if it has been 9 months)  Possibly move forward with that accomplishment in his life and put the COH issue astern.

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Jameson76

[perdidochas]

On 7/13/2018 at 5:41 AM, qwazse said:

'Round here, the scout and his parents arrange the ECoH (pick the date, hall, type of ceremony, etc ...) and invite the troop or crew and others to participate.

Obviously, the troop can accept or decline the invitation, but they can't keep a scout from having one.

Around here, also. 

[perdidochas]

On 7/13/2018 at 6:36 PM, Chris1 said:

This all sounds a bit weird to me. If I were to guess what is happening I would say that someone on the committee for scoutmaster or other powerful individual in The Troop decided that The Troop should not take the time and expense to plan a court of honor 4 an 18 year old who has been out of the troop and not active in the unit since aging  out a year ago. Scoutmaster then goes to insinuate the decision came from Council and the truth is just following that.

Is it reasonable or correct for a troop to make such a decision? I don't know for sure. Perhaps there are Financial and time restrictions on the troop that they feel the cost and time and Personnel Resources required for a court of honor are not in the overall interest or capability of the troop at this point. If this is the case I still cannot believe that the actions taken are appropriate. A better line of action might be to explain the Troop resource constraints and ask for the scout or his family to take on more of the planning or financial responsibilities of putting on the court of honor. The other option would be to offer to present and recognize the Eagle at a normal troop court of honor and if the Scout or family wanted more than it was up to them to go above and beyond that.

You are probably right. In my sons' troop there were three options for a ECOH. The first was simply a ceremony as part of the planned (usually quarterly) COH, with nothing special other than that. (we never had one of these, but it was allowed).  The second is like the above, but the parents of the Eagle provided refreshments, and there was a bit more done. (this was fairly commonly done, especially with 18+ year olds). The third is a special ECOH planned by the Eagle and his parents.  (most common option).  Most of the troop and leaders would show up to this.

 

I feel that the OP is not telling us the whole story if he keeps having these discrimination ideas.  As others have asked. If you think your son is being discriminated against, what do you think he is being discriminated against for? What reason?

[prof]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 6:41 AM, qwazse said:

'Round here, the scout and his parents arrange the ECoH (pick the date, hall, type of ceremony, etc ...) 

We do this in my troop as well!

[Sentinel947]

I think there are two ways to do a Court of Honor for an Eagle Scout. 

One: Have the Eagle Scout rank awarded during a Troop Court of honor. Maybe have the Scout say a few words, his parents, a troop adult of his choice. 10 minutes or so. 

Two: Have the Eagle Scout and family plan a separate Eagle Scout court of honor. They can have it be whatever they want and invite whomever they want. It can be as long or short as they'd like. 

One thing I do know. We have between 3-12 Scouts a year earn Eagle. Nobody on the Committee or the Scoutmasters/Assistant Scoutmasters has the time to plan that many extra court of honor, nor should it fall on the SPL. The Eagle Scout and his parents are the logical choice if they want a separate event. 

To the OP: plan a separate event for with your son, invite his friends, the troop and the troop leadership to attend. Be happy and celebrate his accomplishment, and don't worry about what the Troop adults do or don't do. 

[Oldscout448]

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

 

To the OP: plan a separate event for with your son, invite his friends, the troop and the troop leadership to attend. Be happy and celebrate his accomplishment, and don't worry about what the Troop adults do or don't do. 

This  !

[malraux]

On 7/13/2018 at 12:49 PM, malraux said:

So putting together a timeline:

June 2017, he finishes his eagle application, turns in paperwork, etc.

He turns 18. (Note, when he turns 18 he is no longer a scout unless he registers as an adult)

(probably July) 2017, he finishes his eagle BOR, gets the award, certificate, patch, ribbon, etc.

Fall 2017 he goes off to college.

Summer 2018, he gets told no ECOH run by the troop.

 

Is that all correct? I am curious why an ECOH didn't happen in august 2017 right before he went off to college. That would be the most logical time.

Coming back over a year after leaving scouts (remember he left scouts the day he turned 18) asking for a big event might not be looked at favorably. Its an expense of time and money for a non-member.

To follow up on myself and rereading the thread, it looks like the BoR in October. With a June birthday, this means that the BoR happened in the 3-6 month window after turning 18, which should have involved additional paperwork. I would assume that "at college and can't get the time for the BoR till October" is a pretty legitimate reason for this but there should have been a process that was followed. I would want to be sure that someone at the troop isn't covering themselves for failing to do that correctly. (note: I'm only familiar with Cub Scouts currently so I might be misunderstanding how things actually work at the Scouting BSA level).

So now the delay in ECOH makes some sense in that if the BoR wasn't until after he started in college in the fall, I would assume that he was unable to schedule a convenient time prior to that. I still feel like there's a fair amount missing from the story as we have heard.

[Eagle94-A1]

37 minutes ago, malraux said:

To follow up on myself and rereading the thread, it looks like the BoR in October. With a June birthday, this means that the BoR happened in the 3-6 month window after turning 18, which should have involved additional paperwork. I would assume that "at college and can't get the time for the BoR till October" is a pretty legitimate reason for this but there should have been a process that was followed. I would want to be sure that someone at the troop isn't covering themselves for failing to do that correctly. (note: I'm only familiar with Cub Scouts currently so I might be misunderstanding how things actually work at the Scouting BSA level).

So now the delay in ECOH makes some sense in that if the BoR wasn't until after he started in college in the fall, I would assume that he was unable to schedule a convenient time prior to that. I still feel like there's a fair amount missing from the story as we have heard.

After 90 days, there needs to be a petition to national explaining why the BOR could not have been held prior to the 90 days. If that post 90 day paperwork was not completed and approved by national prior to the EBOR, IT IS NOT A VALID EBOR! That may be the issue. Someone screwed up, did the EBOR after the 90n day deadline and did not have approval.

 

Had that happen to one of my Eagles. If the OP is lurking, please PM. I have some experience in this type of matter.

[Jameson76]

20 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

After 90 days, there needs to be a petition to national explaining why the BOR could not have been held prior to the 90 days. If that post 90 day paperwork was not completed and approved by national prior to the EBOR, IT IS NOT A VALID EBOR! That may be the issue. Someone screwed up, did the EBOR after the 90n day deadline and did not have approval.

 

Had that happen to one of my Eagles. If the OP is lurking, please PM. I have some experience in this type of matter.

Yep - We had one with the same situation.  Completed Eagle paperwork and application just after HS graduation.  They were gone for the summer (working out of state) then college orientation and college (yep out of state), so we coordinated the district BOR for their Fall Break on a Tuesday night.  There was a petition / form / document that we worked through.  As it was past 3 months but less than 6 months was not a huge issue, but we did have to make sure the i's were crossed and the t's were dotted.