Parent Wars: The Helicopter Strikes Back

[Eagledad]

19 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I agree that there has to be limits to compromise.  I see a difference between acquiescing to the first challenge and learning from a pattern of behavior.  A patrol getting frustrated was some scouts and telling them to go sleep with their dad is different than a new scout repeatedly sneaking out to sleep with his dad.  It's our job as adult leaders to make those sort of calls.

These things don't happen in a bubble. You read one post and assume the one scout is the victim and the adult leaders are the bad actors. But just as in my example, these things grow over time to a point of forcing hard choices to be made. Instead of assuming the scout was being forced against his will, maybe you should assume the troop gave in A LOT. Then ask questions to fill in the blanks.

You and I clearly have different opinion of when adult leaders should step in. My boy run philosophy is to let situations force choices before the adults get involved, if they even need to get involved at all. Maturity grows from the application of humility when confronting the right and wrong of our choices.

In both examples, the parents are the main characters because they are taking the lead in determining what their sons would get out of the program. The troop is the victim by appeasing to a family that doesn't like the program. The adult leaders acted nobly giving the parent time to make their a choice.  

Barry

[Oldscout448]

2 hours ago, ParkMan said:

 

When I was a Scout, we attended a Camporee.  There was a patrol competition involving splitting wood.  I'd never used an axe in my life.  The Scoutmaster insisted that I do it.  Said it would be good for me.  It was awful.  I was embarrassed and mortified because I had no idea what I was doing.  I never competed in a patrol competition again.

You were sent into a public competition with no training, no preparation, and no time to at least practice ? !

Your Scoutmaster sounds like a complete and total ,non-empathetic jackass.   How in the world could that possibly be considered good for anyone?  

Scoutmasters like that we just don't need.

Rant over,     sorry you had to go thru that.

Oldscout

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

... My boy run philosophy is to let situations force choices before the adults get involved, if they even need to get involved at all. Maturity grows from the application of humility when confronting the right and wrong of our choices. ...

I have an example where I kind of wish parents got involved. Son #2's best buddy got homesick something terrible. The boys really bent over backwards to help him feel comfortable on multiple occasions. We really needed Dad to come on an overnight or two, or even Mom, but that wasn't happening. (One time Mrs. Q was available to help, the other time the scouts' older brother signed on as ASM.) So, best buddy quit scouting and took up other activities that would not take him far from home. Or, if it did, the buddy's mom would loan Son #2 her car and reserve a hotel for the boys in advance.

So, we had either independent overnights or -- once son #2 crossed that 18 y.o. boundary -- one-on-one contact. Good thing real life isn't BSA. But, like Barry says, a troop can only be so flexible before it's no longer delivering a program to the other boys who want to fully engage. At least in our case, it was the scout's decision to move on, and there were no hard feelings.

[bearess]

My son has a boy in his Troop who always tents with his dad (Dad is an ASM, don’t get me started).  It’s odd, and the other boys notice, but I don’t think anyone is bothered by the fact that he’s advancing thru rank.  As someone said, the rank requirements are pretty clear— none of them require doing your share of work in a patrol, or sleeping in a patrol.  I don’t nderstand the “deal” the SM made— it seems like he’s adding to the requirements.

Leaving camp without telling anyone is VERY problematic.  I would have to think very hard about how to proceed from there.

[AVTech]

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

 But I can see it in the new Family Method Program. Maybe a few kinks have to be worked out like sleeping in the same tent with Cub Scout sister and mom, but I'm sure it can be figured out some how. Does the scout really even need to be in a patrol? He can eat with the parents. Maybe hit McDonalds before assembly. The new BSA really opens up possibilities. 

Barry

 Family camping is part of the Cub Scout program, but nowhere in the new program have I seen that a Troop will offer that as a regular feature of its program. Just for the record, I will be stepping sideways from my current role as Scoutmaster of my son's Troop to be Scoutmaster of a linked girl's Troop (I have a 13 year old daughter who really wants to be an Eagle Scout like her brother, who just had his EBoR last week). I have absolutely no intention of presenting the girls with a program that is less than the Patrol Method program that the boys have been running.

I have a couple of helicopter and bulldozer parents in the Troop right now. They hold no sway over how the Troop operates, despite the occasional barrage of whiny emails. They may be able to cow the staff and administration of our local schools, but I refuse to bend to their will. I know that as soon as I start making an exception for any Scout (unless there is a medical necessity), I will have to continue to make exceptions for everyone. Rank advancement happens in Patrols. Parents are NOT members of any Scout's Patrol, period.

[Eagledad]

21 minutes ago, qwazse said:

So, we had either independent overnights or -- once son #2 crossed that 18 y.o. boundary -- one-on-one contact. Good thing real life isn't BSA. But, like Barry says, a troop can only be so flexible before it's no longer delivering a program to the other boys who want to fully engage. At least in our case, it was the scout's decision to move on, and there were no hard feelings.

Yes, in most cases there were no hard feelings for us because the scout got what he wanted. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case for Eagle94 as well. The only time I can remember any hard feelings was families where the parents wanted their son to earn Eagle in a certain time frame and had to find another troop that would push their son that fast. Those parents turned away when I ran into them at the store.

Barry

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, AVTech said:

 Family camping is part of the Cub Scout program, but nowhere in the new program have I seen that a Troop will offer that as a regular feature of its program. Just for the record, I will be stepping sideways from my current role as Scoutmaster of my son's Troop to be Scoutmaster of a linked girl's Troop (I have a 13 year old daughter who really wants to be an Eagle Scout like her brother, who just had his EBoR last week). I have absolutely no intention of presenting the girls with a program that is less than the Patrol Method program that the boys have been running.

I'm not really worried about the present generation of leaders changing the implementation patrol method. The new membership change will dilute the adult membership pool with more leaders who don't have any patrol method experience. The general expectation of patrol method will change, I think a lot, in a few years. It happened exactly like that when women first joined troops. If one hasn't experienced patrol method, understanding how the method changes and matures a young mind is hard to conceive. It's just hard to believe that it works. 

Also, just the promotion of a more family program will enable parents to assume they have more authority to drive the program to their way of thinking. The program will have to regress just to survive at a common agreeable objective.

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I'm not really worried about the present generation of leaders changing the implementation patrol method. The new membership change will dilute the adult membership pool with more leaders who don't have any patrol method experience. The general expectation of patrol method will change, I think a lot, in a few years. It happened exactly like that when women first joined troops. If one hasn't experienced patrol method, understanding how the method changes and matures a young mind is hard to conceive. It's just hard to believe that it works. 

Also, just the promotion of a more family program will enable parents to assume they have more authority to drive the program to their way of thinking. The program will have to regress just to survive at a common agreeable objective.

Barry

That's the case with these parents. Dad was never in Scouts as a youth. All their Scouting experience is Cub Scouts ( both are registered with the pack still, mom is a DL, dad a MC) and they think Boy Scouts is just a continuation of Cub Scouts. This is the pack that treats the Webelos like Cubs still, and we have a hight turnover rate with their Scouts. They have been pushing more and mroe family activities.

[ParkMan]

8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

These things don't happen in a bubble. You read one post and assume the one scout is the victim and the adult leaders are the bad actors. But just as in my example, these things grow over time to a point of forcing hard choices to be made. Instead of assuming the scout was being forced against his will, maybe you should assume the troop gave in A LOT. Then ask questions to fill in the blanks.

You and I clearly have different opinion of when adult leaders should step in. My boy run philosophy is to let situations force choices before the adults get involved, if they even need to get involved at all. Maturity grows from the application of humility when confronting the right and wrong of our choices.

In both examples, the parents are the main characters because they are taking the lead in determining what their sons would get out of the program. The troop is the victim by appeasing to a family that doesn't like the program. The adult leaders acted nobly giving the parent time to make their a choice.  

Barry

Hi @Eagledad,

Not quite.  I'm a huge fan of boys being in charge.  I think adults should generally stay out of the way.  

I think you misunderstand my motivation here.  I'm not trying to blame anyone.  I'm simply suggesting that there could very well be another way of looking at this situation.  Some of the earlier comments in the thread led me to think that there's a perception among the troop adults that this is a binary issue.

Cheers!