Parent Wars: The Helicopter Strikes Back

[ParkMan]

Hi @Eagle94-A1,

Thanks a lot for the description of what's going on.  You articulate it very nicely.

First - one Scouter to another - you've got my support.  At the end of the day, you've got to run the program that makes sense for your troop.  It definitely sounds like the father is less than respectful in how he's dealing with you guys.  It's most certainly not cool that he's running off to hotels and not telling anyone.  That alone would be a reason for me to let the family leave without an attempt to change their minds.

If I take the Scout's situation at face value - I'm less concerned about what he's doing.  Yes - without doubt, I'd like him to tent with his fellow Scouts.  But, if you guys have honestly tried that and met resistance from him, I wouldn't be concerned about making an accommodation. 

Let me think through what you list above.  I offer this simply as food for thought.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

He's been in over a year. He's been on 6 overnite camp outs, leaving Saturday night on a 7th one because he refused to stay in a tent with his patrol, and attended 2 summer camps.

Sounds like a pretty active Scout to me.  7 campouts and 2 summer camps.  Nice.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

We have tried to work with him, but he keeps sneaking out and joining his dad, and when mom and little brother are in attendance, the family. He is leaving his patrol behind, and leaving his buddy behind. In once case the buddy panicked when he woke up and found his buddy was missing. This caused both of them to sleep outside the father's survival shelter instead of in their own with the patrol. Apparently he was sneaking out of the tent and joining his dad last year at summer camp as well as this year.  As mentioned, last weekend trip he decided he was not going to stay unless he could stay with is dad, and they left. SM talked about this to the parents and the Scout when they were pushing for a Second Class SMC and BOR. Everyone agreed the Scout would sleep with his patrol f rom now on in order to advance to First Class, and the Scout has not kept his end of that bargain.So we tried to work with them, and the situation has continued. And even got worse with summer camp.

I think I'd have cried uncle after the second attempt.  If the kid is sneaking out to be with his family, what is the benefit by trying to force him that much?  The Scout doesn't like it, the family doesn't like it, you all are frustrated.  So he doesn't tent with another Scout - I can think of worse things.  

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As I said dad is encouraging it. When other adults talk to the Scout about the situation, dad says nothing. When this was discussed last time with the Scout and his dad for Second Class, another adult overheard him mutter to himself about if his son wants to sleep in his tent, he will.

Seems to me that the Dad just doesn't agree with you guys.  He and their family just see this differently.  

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Some of the Scouts are getting resentful about him getting rank without actually earning it.

What didn't he earn?  The requirements are:

Tenderfoot: 1b. Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch.

Second Class: 1a. Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in five separate troop/patrol activities, at least three of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least two must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee.

First Class: 1a. Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, at least six of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least three must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee.

The patrol or troop campout is the event, not the act of sharing a tent with another scout.  All this scout has to do is sleep outdoors in the tent he pitched.  As long as he does that, he's completed the requirement.  There's nothing about tenting with other Scouts in the requirement.  We've had kids sleep in their own tent from time to time.  Most of our older scouts sleep in their own 2 person tent.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Finally, the SM talked to them about the entire situation.  He talked about how he depends on the adults to do what they say they will do. He talked about leaving camp without telling anyone and the problems it could have caused.

To me, this is the real issue caused by the family.  This is inexcusable.

 

[ianwilkins]

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I hear ya @ParkMan. But this has been happening over a year's time. We have tried tow work with the Scout. but A) The Scout is not even trying to hold up to his end of the agreement, B) dad is encouraging it, C) other scouts in the troop are seeing this and becoming resentful and D) the family mentioned leaving,  not the SM.

....

And this is not the first time they suggested leaving either.

 

Wave goodbye. Try and look sad.

You can't win 'em all.

[shortridge]

5 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I think I'd have cried uncle after the second attempt.  If the kid is sneaking out to be with his family, what is the benefit by trying to force him that much?  The Scout doesn't like it, the family doesn't like it, you all are frustrated.  So he doesn't tent with another Scout - I can think of worse things.  

The benefit is called Scouting. Scouting isn’t done by camping with one’s parents or family.

[Eagle94-A1]

I know the requirements do not state anything about parents on a camp out.  His mom is arguing that as to why he should be allowed to advance to First Class. But the Scout in question has not spent one night in a tent he has pitched. He will be with his patrol, set up tents, or survival shelters, with them, and then sneak off. Only one night did he sleep in a shelter he helped build with his patrol. Dad stayed outside the shelter until he fell asleep that night. Then second night he snuck into the parents tent. Since he has not slept in a tent he pitched, he should not even be Tenderfoot, let alone Second Class.  

And we have one Scout with a documented medical condition who spent the first year camping with dad. That Scout and his patrol mates old set up dad's tent so that the challenged scout could " Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch." Challenged Scout has not had any issues of late, and is sleeping with the patrol with some precautions.

[MattR]

We have a scout in our troop that for the first year slept with a parent. The parents wanted him on his own. He was just immature. Now he's fine.

There are worse things. Like today I got email directed to all camp staffs that reminded everyone that they should put in baby changing stations at camp so as to support family camping. I wish they put as much effort into developing stronger patrols as they do for family camping.

[ParkMan]

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I know the requirements do not state anything about parents on a camp out.  His mom is arguing that as to why he should be allowed to advance to First Class. But the Scout in question has not spent one night in a tent he has pitched. He will be with his patrol, set up tents, or survival shelters, with them, and then sneak off. Only one night did he sleep in a shelter he helped build with his patrol. Dad stayed outside the shelter until he fell asleep that night. Then second night he snuck into the parents tent. Since he has not slept in a tent he pitched, he should not even be Tenderfoot, let alone Second Class.  

And we have one Scout with a documented medical condition who spent the first year camping with dad. That Scout and his patrol mates old set up dad's tent so that the challenged scout could " Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch." Challenged Scout has not had any issues of late, and is sleeping with the patrol with some precautions.

Then have him setup the tent that he shares with his dad.  Problem solved.

Just seems to me that trying to force him to tent with other Scouts isn't working and is only making everyone frustrated.

[Eagledad]

6 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Then have him setup the tent that he shares with his dad.  Problem solved.

Just seems to me that trying to force him to tent with other Scouts isn't working and is only making everyone frustrated.

This suggestion won't work in our Patrol Method backpacking style troop. But I can see it in the new Family Method Program. Maybe a few kinks have to be worked out like sleeping in the same tent with Cub Scout sister and mom, but I'm sure it can be figured out some how. Does the scout really even need to be in a patrol? He can eat with the parents. Maybe hit McDonalds before assembly. The new BSA really opens up possibilities. 

Barry

[ParkMan]

6 hours ago, shortridge said:

The benefit is called Scouting. Scouting isn’t done by camping with one’s parents or family.

I'm not looking to have a debate on the merits of camping and parental involvement.  Of course camping with other Scouts is preferred.

My point is simply that Scouting, like everything else with raising kids, is sometimes messy and doesn't fit our desired structure.  We don't want to throw out our ideals at the first challenge, but sometimes you have to compromise for the longer term payoff.

When I was a Scout, we attended a Camporee.  There was a patrol competition involving splitting wood.  I'd never used an axe in my life.  The Scoutmaster insisted that I do it.  Said it would be good for me.  It was awful.  I was embarrassed and mortified because I had no idea what I was doing.  I never competed in a patrol competition again.

[ParkMan]

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

This suggestion won't work in our Patrol Method backpacking style troop. But I can see it in the new Family Method Program. Maybe a few kinks have to be worked out like sleeping in the same tent with Cub Scout sister and mom, but I'm sure it can be figured out some how. Does the scout really even need to be in a patrol? He can eat with the parents. Maybe hit McDonalds before assembly. The new BSA really opens up possibilities. 

Barry

Now you're getting silly.  I'm not advocating family camping.  I'm just saying sometimes you have to compromise. 

[T2Eagle]

This does seem like a strange hill to die on, and it seems like it has become a test of will for the troop.  Clearly there is some issue the scout has about not being able to sleep in a tent with someone other than his parent.  It doesn't really matter where that issue came, childhhood trauma, fault of the parents or something else that no one is aware --- to the scout it is a real and meaningful thing.  Hopefully he'll overcome this, but simply dictating to him that he must overcome right now is clearly not working, so why keep doing it?  Most kids overcome challenges like this over time, but that time can be longer or shorter in individuals, you can't force it.

As to the problems with advancement and him leaving a buddy in a tent, frankly that seems to be the result of stubbornness on the part of the troop leadership.  It is perfectly predictable that this kid is not going to spend the night in a tent with his fellow scouts, any scout leader not seeing that is being willfully ignorant, after all whatever the scout may say or be told, a responsible adult can easily predict what's actually going to happen.  And if the troop has known or should have known that he wasn't going to able to stay in a particular tent they could have easily let him help pitch the tent he was going to stay in.

If you think that being able to sleep in a tent without his parent is so singularly important a thing that he should either do it or be thrown out of the troop then tell him so and be done with it.  But I always ask myself in this situation, what's better for the kid, that he participate in some scouting and get its benefits or that he participate in no scouting and get no benefit from the program I dedicate myself to.

 

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Now you're getting silly.  I'm not advocating family camping.  I'm just saying sometimes you have to compromise. 

Silly, I agree. But this situation actually happened in our troop. Twin boys who weren't enjoying the campout and they were making life difficult for the rest of the patrol. The patrol said if they didn't like it there, move in with dad. They did, and dad allowed it. Next day the twins wanted something different than what the patrol was cooking, so dad took them to McDonalds. 

It went downhill from there and that was the twins last campout with our troop. Their choice.

Compromises depend on the programs. Sounds like the troop compromised a lot. Eventually the troop needed the family to make a choice for Boy Scouting, or whatever scouting they wanted. They made their choice.

Choosing to leave a troop program is not a bad thing. We had a scout with mental disabilities leave his tent and walk out of camp on a 35 degree rainy night wearing just his underwear. We had made many compromises for this scout for about a year, but all agreed that OUR program was not for this young man. His parent made a choice, a good choice.

You shouldn't have said the comment about forcing the scout, it wasn't fair to the troop that has been compromising. Scouting is not for every family. 

Barry

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, T2Eagle said:

But I always ask myself in this situation, what's better for the kid, that he participate in some scouting and get its benefits or that he participate in no scouting and get no benefit from the program I dedicate myself to.

 

That is not a completely fair statement because there is a whole troop of families who want their sons to benefit from the program. The program has goals and processes to reach the goals. Once the quality of the program is diminished by needs of a single family, then choices have to be made. Your troops program isn't for every family. It is OK for families to make the tough choices. 

Barry

[walk in the woods]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

There are worse things. Like today I got email directed to all camp staffs that reminded everyone that they should put in baby changing stations at camp so as to support family camping. I wish they put as much effort into developing stronger patrols as they do for family camping.

😲Like for family nights or just in general?

[ParkMan]

18 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Silly, I agree. But this situation actually happened in our troop. Twin boys who weren't enjoying the campout and they were making life difficult for the rest of the patrol. The patrol said if they didn't like it there, move in with dad. They did, and dad allowed it. Next day the twins wanted something different than what the patrol was cooking, so dad took them to McDonalds. 

It went downhill from there and that was the twins last campout with our troop. Their choice.

Compromises depend on the programs. Sounds like the troop compromised a lot. Eventually the troop needed the family to make a choice for Boy Scouting, or whatever scouting they wanted. They made their choice.

Choosing to leave a troop program is not a bad thing. We had a scout with mental disabilities leave his tent and walk out of camp on a 35 degree rainy night wearing just his underwear. We had made many compromises for this scout for about a year, but all agreed that OUR program was not for this young man. His parent made a choice, a good choice.

You shouldn't have said the comment about forcing the scout, it wasn't fair to the troop that has been compromising. Scouting is not for every family. 

Barry

I agree that there has to be limits to compromise.  I see a difference between acquiescing to the first challenge and learning from a pattern of behavior.  A patrol getting frustrated was some scouts and telling them to go sleep with their dad is different than a new scout repeatedly sneaking out to sleep with his dad.  It's our job as adult leaders to make those sort of calls.

I'm not here to second guess the troop leaders.  They know the details of the situation much better than I do.

Sorry if it's taken the wrong way.  Perhaps the leaders don't see it as forcing the scout, but at some point, repeatedly putting the Scout in the position where he feels his only recourse is to sneak out seems a bit strong to me.  Maybe once of twice - sure.  But 7 trips and two summer camps?

I do get that folks guard the quality of their program.  I tend to think about the long term in these kind of situations.  Is it really worth making a big deal over this situation when it will almost certainly resolve itself over time.  I cannot imagine that when this scout gets to 15 or 16 he'll really want to share a tent with dad. In the end, whether some kid tents with his dad for a year or two is nothing more than a footnote is a Scouts career.

[Eagle94-A1]

SM has compromised. SM gave him credit for camping and other requirements that dad intervened and helped with to get Second Class. We have tried to work with the family on 3 different occasions. WE NEVER SAID THEY HAVE TO LEAVE EITHER (emphasis). SM did tell them that after Second Class, he would have to be part of the patrol, do his fair share of the work without dad helping, and camp with his patrol. SM stated that a First Class Scout is one that has mastered basic Scouting outdoor skills and can take care of himself and others without adults present.  A First Class Scout is completely comfortable in the outdoors. This Scout is not there. But the parents, especially mom, is pushing and pushing for the Scout to receive First Class.

And the situation is starting to affect the rest of the troop. I already mentioned the resentment it is causing. We have one Scout who is afraid of the water, and that is what is holding him back from getting Second and First Class ranks. He has mastered all the other basic outdoor skills, and even taught a session on Leave No Trace principles. He is in the process of overcoming his fears and learning how to swim. He has made some comments about it not being fair that The Scout can get Second Class sleeping without sleeping with his patrol, but he cannot advance due to swimming. The Scout with the medical condition has commented on the situation. And other Scouts have commented that earning rank is no longer a big deal as it appears the ranks are being handed out now. It is causing problems.

And the Scout and dad leaving early on the camp out could have affected the entire troop if we were depending upon dad to provide transport for other Scouts, or tow the trailer. Thankfully we had enough drivers, but that could have left us in a lurch if we had more Scouts than seats.

But Dad and Scout leaving summer camp without personally telling someone before they left is what really caused latest problem. I do not think they see anything wrong in what they did. I do not think he has any idea of the problems it could have caused if the text was not received before light outs. It's almost as if the family believes the rules do not apply to them.

And as I stated, WE DID NOT TELL THEM THEY WOULD NEED TO LEAVE. We have tried to work with them and encourage the Scout. They were the ones that first mentioned leaving to join another troop. They got upset when the SM talked to them and the Scout about Second Class and needing to camp with his patrol form now own. They mentioned leaving then. Irony is the troop they will be visiting is a hard core, patrol method troop. It is the one that most reminds me of the troop I grew up in. And it is the one that if issues get worse in my troop, my sons are thinking of transferring to. I do not see the family joining that troop, or if they do, staying long. that troop will not compromise their program.