Is this the new normal?

[RememberSchiff]

On 7/8/2018 at 7:35 AM, scoutldr said:

Interesting reading, RichardB.  As a 40-year OSH professional myself (CIH and former Director of the ABIH), I understand the need for rules and clarity in writing them.  Unfortunately, the BSA is not always good at stating what they mean, and materials are often not cross-walked for consistency.  But even for me, the rule against using wheelbarrows and electric screwdrivers is hard to justify.  And I have always assumed that the prohibition of laser-tag was based not on the "hazards" of the activity, but on the optics of Scouts acting out "war" and "shooting" of other human beings.  As kids, most of us boys played "Army" and "Cowboys and Indians" using toy guns and dramatic theatrics of killing and being killed.  Such activities are no longer politically correct and thus prohibited.  But don't cloak the prohibition as some sort of safety issue.  And I do take exception with the implication that these rules now apply to "non-scouting" activities.  Just because I carry a BSA membership card in my wallet, doesn't mean I or my sons am bound by the G2SS while "off the clock".  If that is not what BSA intended, then let's refer back to the clarity issue mentioned above.

In reading the CDC incident report, it is evident that the cannon used was not designed or manufactured to be fired, but as a decorative piece.  Someone modified it by boring the barrel an drilling a touch-hole, with predictable fatal results.  Hopefully, this was an isolated incident, but I understand the need for the rule.

As far as clarity is concerned, perhaps BSA could follow the style of OSHA in writing rules..."Should" means it's prudent and recommended..."Shall" means mandatory.  And God help the leader who chooses not to follow a "Should" and something bad happens.

All that being said, I recognize the tough job you have and appreciate your efforts.  Along with increasing tendency to litigate over the slightest injury and refusal to recognize that zero-risk is unattainable, and the concomitant decrease in common sense amongst the younger generations, it's a tough job.

Good points.

Another annoyance is when activity X is prohibited except at a BSA facility, as if safe, quality programs cannot possibly be offered elsewhere.

Which brings me to a recent announcement of, exclusive  to Summit,  the National Hunters Education course. We do hunter education locally, outside of scouting, with instructors from Mass Wildlife and the host sportsmen club. Hunting rules and regulations, and licensing are state specific, plus scouts can bring their own firearm/bow to training.

[gblotter]

19 hours ago, qwazse said:

Like many other venturing events, Venturers will hold dances at a council camp near you.

Ah. Perhaps that is the reason why I have never felt an affinity for Venturing.

[CalicoPenn]

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Good points.

Another annoyance is when activity X is prohibited except at a BSA facility, as if safe, quality programs cannot possibly be offered elsewhere.

Which brings me to a recent announcement of, exclusive  to Summit,  the National Hunters Education course. We do hunter education locally, outside of scouting, with instructors from Mass Wildlife and the host sportsmen club. Hunting rules and regulations, and licensing are state specific, plus scouts can bring their own firearm/bow to training.

I watched that video.  Not impressed.  In fact, it's a bit disturbing to me.  Nothing in the practice shooting (which isn't much different than many of the shooting games in a video arcade) suggests hunting at all.  Instead, it looks more like an assault course for law enforcement set in a "rural" environment.

[Saltface]

Now I think they're just messing with me. Who are all these Scouts so keen on taking selfies?

[CalicoPenn]

1 hour ago, Saltface said:

Now I think they're just messing with me. Who are all these Scouts so keen on taking selfies?

 

People younger than us.

[Saltface]

1 hour ago, CalicoPenn said:

People younger than us.

Or significantly older.

[ScouterNorth]

On 7/10/2018 at 10:19 AM, CalicoPenn said:

I watched that video.  Not impressed.  In fact, it's a bit disturbing to me.  Nothing in the practice shooting (which isn't much different than many of the shooting games in a video arcade) suggests hunting at all.  Instead, it looks more like an assault course for law enforcement set in a "rural" environment.

Fair warning - I am not a hunter but have friends who are.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but...

Is a pistol even a viable hunting firearm?

I'm pretty sure hunting does not involve running around shooting at things that pop-up.  Speed is not an asset.

 

From what my friends have told me hunting is essentially either sitting quietly in one spot waiting for the animals to come to you after which you get one shot, or walking around very slowly and quietly after which you get one shot.   The only real exception is duck hunting, where you sit very quietly in one spot but you do get multiple shots as the ducks fly away.

 

As Calico said, nothing in the video shows training that would necessarily apply to the above scenarios.  If you want to inject a "cool" factor, then sniper type scenarios would be far more applicable.

 

Or am I way out in left (ha!) field?

 

 

 

[TMSM]

1 hour ago, ScouterNorth said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but...

Is a pistol even a viable hunting firearm?

 

 

FYI - Illinois does have a handgun season for deer and when you hunt quail you do move quite a bit.

[ScouterNorth]

44 minutes ago, TMSM said:

FYI - Illinois does have a handgun season for deer and when you hunt quail you do move quite a bit.

Thanks for the information.  It's always good to learn something new.

 

I'm in Canada where pistols are considered a Restricted Firearm which means that a) they are very difficult to get and b) their legal usage is severely restricted.  Hunting is not a legal usage for a Restricted Firearm.  Hence my previous ignorance on the subject.

 

Thanks again!

[oldbuzzard]

On 7/10/2018 at 5:06 AM, RememberSchiff said:

Good points.

Another annoyance is when activity X is prohibited except at a BSA facility, as if safe, quality programs cannot possibly be offered elsewhere.

Which brings me to a recent announcement of, exclusive  to Summit,  the National Hunters Education course. We do hunter education locally, outside of scouting, with instructors from Mass Wildlife and the host sportsmen club. Hunting rules and regulations, and licensing are state specific, plus scouts can bring their own firearm/bow to training.

Maybe our council just isn't good at following directions, regardless of the liberal/conservative bias, but it has had hunter education programs running on council camp sites for at least 15 years. In previous years it has been pitched as a semi-official collaborative effort between them and the Deer Hunter Assoc., https://scoutingevent.com/?forkhorn2015  More recently it hasn't been mentioned on the council site but is still running at council camps, as well as Y camps and others. https://www.mndeerhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Deer-Hunters-FH-Brochure-1.9.18.pdf

ETA: I agree hunter ed probably shouldn't be a troop activity... but council or run with DNR or  other groups with certs seems fine to me.

Edited July 13, 2018 by oldbuzzard

[CalicoPenn]

10 minutes ago, oldbuzzard said:

Maybe our council just isn't good at following directions, regardless of the liberal/conservative bias, but it has had hunter education programs running on council camp sites for at least 15 years. In previous years it has been pitched as a semi-official collaborative effort between them and the Deer Hunter Assoc., https://scoutingevent.com/?forkhorn2015  More recently it hasn't been mentioned on the council site but is still running at council camps, as well as Y camps and others. https://www.mndeerhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Deer-Hunters-FH-Brochure-1.9.18.pdf

ETA: I agree hunter ed probably shouldn't be a troop activity... but council or run with DNR or  other groups with certs seems fine to me.

Actually, hunting is a restricted activity, not an unauthorized activity.  Hunting is not allowed in the Cub Scout or the Boy Scout program but is allowed in the Venturing program.   Hunter Safety programming is not considered hunting and is considered part of the BSA programming curriculum (according to the G2SS).   So I would say that running hunter education programs on council properties is well within the acceptable range of activities. 

[CalicoPenn]

4 hours ago, ScouterNorth said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but...

Is a pistol even a viable hunting firearm?

 

In Maine, one can hunt with a handgun - but not with one with greater power than .22 caliber long rifle ammunition.

[Eagledad]

14 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

In Maine, one can hunt with a handgun - but not with one with greater power than .22 caliber long rifle ammunition.

Are sure about that? 22 and 223 calibers aren’t allowed here for large game because they aren’t large enough for a 1 shot kill. Rabbits and squirrels are ok. 

That is one reason why the AR15 is not a common hunting rifle, at least in our state.

Barry

[CalicoPenn]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Are sure about that? 22 and 223 calibers aren’t allowed here for large game because they aren’t large enough for a 1 shot kill. Rabbits and squirrels are ok. 

That is one reason why the AR15 is not a common hunting rifle, at least in our state.

Barry

I am - but I should have also mentioned that these rules are for hunting raccoons.

[Eagledad]

53 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

I am - but I should have also mentioned that these rules are for hunting raccoons.

I was wondering, I have a friend who was talking about hunting moose with a handgun. I thought he said Maine, but I might be remembering wrong. 

22 caliber can be more dangerous than larger calibers because they tend to bounce and ricochet, especially when shooting near body’s of water.

Barry