Is this the new normal?

[NJCubScouter]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

But there's only one way to figure this out!

Please let us know of your findings.

[TWCub]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

I suspect the toilet paper does not shred. I once heard of putting the flour in socks and it just works its way through the sock, leaving a white spot on the person that was hit.

But there's only one way to figure this out!

Challenge accepted!  Can't wait for the next campout to find out.  Thanks!

[CalicoPenn]

21 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

So why wouldn't these also be considered simulated firearms and thus also banned by G2SS?

They're called water blasters or water cannons and they are not in the shape of a gun.

Let's clear something up (using this as a platform - not meant to single you out).

The G2SS does NOT ban water pistols, or paintball guns, or laser tag guns.  What the G2SS bans is pointing and shooting at people or targets in the shape of people.  You can use water guns, paintball guns or laser tag guns to shoot at targets that are not people or representative of people.  This rule is not in place because National thinks squirt gun battles are more dangerous than water balloon battles or wet sponge battles.  It is in place to be consistent with what is being taught on BB Gun, Rifle, Shotgun and Archery ranges - namely - never ever ever point a gun, loaded or not, at another person.  I know, I know - I get the argument - a water gun or a laser tag gun is not a real gun and won't hurt anyone - but ask yourself this - do you believe that television and video game violence is responsible, if even just partly, for how violent our society has seemed to become?  It's always a popular argument when some kid shoots up a school - that he (and it's normally a he) must have spent too much time playing shoot-em up video games.  Isn't the BSA essentially making the same argument when they say even pointing water pistols at each other teaches Scouts that aiming guns at other people is ok to do?  If you accept the video game argument, shouldn't you also accept the BSA's position?

Edited July 3, 2018 by CalicoPenn

[CalicoPenn]

4 hours ago, shortridge said:

Purpose may have been the wrong word. I meant what does the TP+flour combination *do*? Seems to me it wouldn’t throw well, and would explode in a mess that would leave toilet paper shreds all over camp. 

Kind of a conundrum - Leave No Trace and all - but TP decomposes in about 6 weeks on the ground and since its a paper product, it adds nutrients to the soil (granted - in miniscule amounts) after being broken down.

[Eagledad]

26 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

They're called water blasters or water cannons and they are not in the shape of a gun.

Let's clear something up (using this as a platform - not meant to single you out).

The G2SS does NOT ban water pistols, or paintball guns, or laser tag guns.  What the G2SS bans is pointing and shooting at people or targets in the shape of people.  You can use water guns, paintball guns or laser tag guns to shoot at targets that are not people or representative of people.  This rule is not in place because National thinks squirt gun battles are more dangerous than water balloon battles or wet sponge battles.  It is in place to be consistent with what is being taught on BB Gun, Rifle, Shotgun and Archery ranges - namely - never ever ever point a gun, loaded or not, at another person.  I know, I know - I get the argument - a water gun or a laser tag gun is not a real gun and won't hurt anyone - but ask yourself this - do you believe that television and video game violence is responsible, if even just partly, for how violent our society has seemed to become?  It's always a popular argument when some kid shoots up a school - that he (and it's normally a he) must have spent too much time playing shoot-em up video games.  Isn't the BSA essentially making the same argument when they say even pointing water pistols at each other teaches Scouts that aiming guns at other people is ok to do?  If you accept the video game argument, shouldn't you also accept the BSA's position?

For me, I feel teaching make-believe shooting as a practice for violence in the future is like zero tolerance policies. Such policies force a negative moral aspect to a neutral or innocent motive. We read stories a lot of violators of a zero tolerance policies with innocent intentions. A person who is never in a situation of thinking of their actions never get to judge the intentions of their actions against any kind of measured consequence. In fact, prohibiting thoughts and actions can actually encourage a person toward the action. I experienced this when I've introduce adults to hunting. They are difficult hunting companions because their desire to hunt has turned into an obsession to kill their prey. There are many aspects to hunting that attract people into the outdoors besides the act of killing, or even using their weapon. Hunting for many is just an excuse to be alone in the outdoors. Adults who were restricted from innocent play of those weapons as youths are more mentally dangerous in my experience.

I have always felt that Scouting is a safe place for boys (youth I guess now) to not only learn physical safety of tools, but also mentally learn the balances of their motivations to their desire consequences. A boy learns to play aggressively at his maturity level learns the consequences of the tools being used for play. I have never heard of a serial killer or school shooting where the shooter is mentally normal. Same goes with knives, with the recent trend of knife attacks, is the BSA eventually going to be blamed. Is a knife a tool, or a weapon? Is a squirtgun a toy, or a weapon? If adults call it evil, is it really evil, or just a tool?

As for video games, the problem we found with our kids growing up is that too much play can turn into obsession. A video game is just a video game if played for entertainment. Entertainment turns into obsession is where harm starts to come into play. 

A squirt gun is just method of getting wet. Anything more is just helicopter parenting.

Barry

[walk in the woods]

3 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

It's not in the shape of a gun?  National hasn't heard about it yet?  Place your theory here...

Well, the rules say "firearm or simulated firearm."  If "shape of a gun" is the basis for decision making then we'd have to unban lazer tag because those contraption don't look like guns.  Regardless, a long skinny tube firing a projectile is the description of an RPG launcher.

[walk in the woods]

2 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

If you accept the video game argument, shouldn't you also accept the BSA's position?

I reject the video game argument because it's based in victim thinking.  It's the "devil made me do it" defense to attempt to avoid responsibility.  Society's reflex to ban guns reinforces the avoidance of responsibility by blaming the instrument rather than the perpetrator.  Both are weak tea arguments.

What we're really losing with the squirt gun ban is the ability to teach boys nuance in decision making. 

A firearm can cause harm, so, don't point firearms at people.  This rifle is a firearm, therefore, don't point it at people.  Good logic.

A firearm can cause harm, so, don't point firearms at people.  This squirt gun is not a firearm, therefor, don't point it at people.  Flawed logic.

I trust boys can figure out the difference between a firearm and a squirt gun.  It's not clear to me the BSA trusts boys or their adult leaders anymore.

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, walk in the woods said:

Well, the rules say "firearm or simulated firearm."  If "shape of a gun" is the basis for decision making then we'd have to unban lazer tag because those contraption don't look like guns.  Regardless, a long skinny tube firing a projectile is the description of an RPG launcher.

What made the laser tag restriction a really big deal was that Laser tag was a very popular scout activity when the rule came out in the mid 90s. The Laser tag game centers were big rooms with large objects placed around so that players could hide and strategize their attacks on the opposing players. Pretty much a Capture the Flag in a building, only more intense and faster because the room limited where players could hide. As a patrol method Scoutmaster, I really liked it because it forced patrols to come together quickly to win. It was a fast way to bond patrols. And it was such a popular scout activity for scouts of all ages that our Council even found and gave discount tickets to the units. Council didn't even discourage the activity for a couple years even after the restriction. 

Barry

[RichardB]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

What made the laser tag restriction a really big deal was that Laser tag was a very popular scout activity when the rule came out in the mid 90s. 

Et al, it's 2018, the 90's were a long time ago.    Lots of other ways to bond found in the actual literature, no need to make it up as you go and put kids and yourself at risk.  

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss07/  - suggest you all review, it's got some new material and presented in a different format.    Even includes a safety moment to share on why somethings need to be unauthorized.    

RichardB 

[Rick_in_CA]

3 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

They're called water blasters or water cannons and they are not in the shape of a gun.

Let's clear something up (using this as a platform - not meant to single you out).

The G2SS does NOT ban water pistols, or paintball guns, or laser tag guns.  What the G2SS bans is pointing and shooting at people or targets in the shape of people.  You can use water guns, paintball guns or laser tag guns to shoot at targets that are not people or representative of people.  This rule is not in place because National thinks squirt gun battles are more dangerous than water balloon battles or wet sponge battles.  It is in place to be consistent with what is being taught on BB Gun, Rifle, Shotgun and Archery ranges - namely - never ever ever point a gun, loaded or not, at another person.  I know, I know - I get the argument - a water gun or a laser tag gun is not a real gun and won't hurt anyone - but ask yourself this - do you believe that television and video game violence is responsible, if even just partly, for how violent our society has seemed to become?  It's always a popular argument when some kid shoots up a school - that he (and it's normally a he) must have spent too much time playing shoot-em up video games.  Isn't the BSA essentially making the same argument when they say even pointing water pistols at each other teaches Scouts that aiming guns at other people is ok to do?  If you accept the video game argument, shouldn't you also accept the BSA's position?

There is an additional aspect to the ban. My understanding that the original ban dates back to the early 70s. It was a reaction to the protests against the Vietnam War, and the growing anti-military attitude of the country. The BSA was trying too make a big deal out of the fact that it wasn't the military, especially trying to eliminate anything that could look like specific training for war.

At the time, most of the scout leaders were veterans, and many of them ran their troops like military units. I remember learning how to march and dress ranks when I was a boy scout. When our troop marched in parades, we (tried at least) to look military (we marched in formation to a called cadence). To a layman, the scouts looked military (we wore green uniforms, saluted, had ranks, marched, organized in patrols, learned to shoot guns, the military offered lots of support to the scouts, etc.). One of the reasons for the switch to the Oscar de la Renta uniform was to make scouts less military looking.

[Eagledad]

18 minutes ago, RichardB said:

Et al, it's 2018, the 90's were a long time ago.    Lots of other ways to bond found in the actual literature, no need to make it up as you go and put kids and yourself at risk.  

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss07/  - suggest you all review, it's got some new material and presented in a different format.    Even includes a safety moment to share on why somethings need to be unauthorized.    

RichardB 

Thanks Richard

Interesting. Nothing in your post changes  what I've been trying to say. The Laser Tag restriction at best is a bit patronizing, over controlling, and over protective. Scouting is a safe place to practice how to differentiate between harm and fun. I believe today's helicopter parenting (and helicopter mentoring in scouting) adults are a result of not giving youth practice in these kinds of activities.

Barry

[shortridge]

55 minutes ago, RichardB said:

Et al, it's 2018, the 90's were a long time ago.    Lots of other ways to bond found in the actual literature, no need to make it up as you go and put kids and yourself at risk.  

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss07/  - suggest you all review, it's got some new material and presented in a different format.    Even includes a safety moment to share on why somethings need to be unauthorized.    

RichardB 

As always, Richard, thank you for being here and for your willingness to engage.

I suspect some of the frustration here stems from the lack of information on “Why” in the G2SS. The “safety moment” doesn’t answer that at all, but just refers back to Scouting values and to the list itself.

When BSA prohibits things that we do daily in civilian life (like have kids under 14 pull wagons and push wheelbarrows, and take elementary-aged kids to play laser tag and use water guns), then the “Why” becomes even more important. Our kids are asking it, we are asking it, and it seems reasonable that there ought to be a simple answer available instead of just “read the manual.”

[FireStone]

I'm kind of amazed that water guns and laser tag are subjects worthy of so much discussion. It has never occurred to me that either would really be all that important in a Scouting program. If I look back at my 12 years as a youth in Scouting, I don't think I'd ever have the thought that I missed out on anything by not ever having the chance to play laser tag. 

Also in thinking back on my youth Scouting days, I remember my Troop ditched our Council camp for many years because of the poor camp program. The issues expressed in the original post here sound a lot like problems/concerns I heard expressed in my youth (1990s), and I'm guessing are far from new. Or normal, thankfully. Because today, just like back then, it was a simple matter of finding a better camp, and both back then and today I know that good camps exist in our area. 

Maybe dull/poor camp programs are more common today, but certainly they're not the new normal. 

[David CO]

19 hours ago, Rick_in_CA said:

There is an additional aspect to the ban. My understanding that the original ban dates back to the early 70s. It was a reaction to the protests against the Vietnam War, and the growing anti-military attitude of the country. The BSA was trying too make a big deal out of the fact that it wasn't the military, especially trying to eliminate anything that could look like specific training for war.

Military re-enactments are allowed. Laser Tag and water pistols are not.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

I'm kind of amazed that water guns and laser tag are subjects worthy of so much discussion. It has never occurred to me that either would really be all that important in a Scouting program. If I look back at my 12 years as a youth in Scouting, I don't think I'd ever have the thought that I missed out on anything by not ever having the chance to play laser tag. 

Also in thinking back on my youth Scouting days, I remember my Troop ditched our Council camp for many years because of the poor camp program. The issues expressed in the original post here sound a lot like problems/concerns I heard expressed in my youth (1990s), and I'm guessing are far from new. Or normal, thankfully. Because today, just like back then, it was a simple matter of finding a better camp, and both back then and today I know that good camps exist in our area. 

Maybe dull/poor camp programs are more common today, but certainly they're not the new normal. 

Water guns, laser tag, and little red wagons are symbolic of the larger problem that National is not only out of touch with how scouting develops character, they are becoming more reactionary without common reasoning of the program and program activities.

There doesn’t seem to be a pragmatic mind at National. They prohibited the popular Bobcat ceremony in the 90s where adults held the Cubs up-side-down while they pinned the Bobcat Badge to their uniform. Any reasonable adult had little trouble with the guideline because common sense tells us it’s a safety issue. But National restricted based on, “hazing”? Look up hazing and figure that one out. Instead of appealing to the common sense of parents, National was using a condescending trigger word to guilt their volunteers to change. That’s how much they respect their volunteers. 

The future of the BSA program is being directed (misdirected) by members whose emotions and and personal agendas are not getting balanced with practical reasoning and common sense. Yes, it’s just laser tag and water guns, and little red wagons, but in the big picture of the whole program, the reactionary justification behind those benign guidelines are leeching into all the decisions being pushed on the volunteers in the trenches.

Sadley, the so called professionals at National can do what they want because there is no avenue in the system to hold them accountable?

Barry