Is this the new normal?

[MattR]

Don't over think this. After 4 weeks the camp staff wanted to go to a dance.

The other issues are mistakes that should be brought up with the council. It sounds like they had a new camp director that didn't have much experience. Or maybe they just wanted to mix things up and it flopped.

Maybe the underlying issue is a low salary for those in charge and they're getting people that just don't get it.

 

[CalicoPenn]

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

As for female Scouters and Moms, I agree. I see some of the silly rules, i.e. no water guns, no laser tag, no pioneering projects over 6 feet, etc as a result of female being involved.

Do you have anything to back up this contention that it's because of females that we have no water guns, no laser tag and no pioneering projects over 6 feet?  I've never heard this before.

 

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

Do you have anything to back up this contention that it's because of females that we have no water guns, no laser tag and no pioneering projects over 6 feet?  I've never heard this before.

Calico, it's a well rumored theory that the women at National lock the conference room entrances and kitchen back door as they discuss these things. Pay more attention, will ya.

Barry

[thrifty]

4 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Whoever thought that a group that I'm guessing was 99% boys would dance clearly knows nothing about boys.

Our troop has been to the same camp for the past three years.  It has a Root Beer Cantina twice during each camp week.  The cantina is at the outdoor pavilion and the second day is when parents can visit.  There is also a dance and popular music.  I've only witnessed this once but there were lots of scouts having fun on the stage and dancing and cutting loose. 

1 hour ago, David CO said:

Do you think they are doing this to accommodate girls in scouting?

My school does this sort of thing all the time. Almost all of the teachers are women, so they always gravitate towards the girl stuff.

I don't know how many years the camp has been doing this but it was before the more recent changes regarding girls in scouting.  I don't like dancing but can it really be considered "girl stuff?"  Sorry but I think this is a little narrow minded.  I thought vary highly of the young scouts that were on the stage dancing and having fun because they wanted to and were not concerned about the other self-conscious scouts sitting on the benches too worried about embarrassing themselves.    The scouts were doing line dances and singing to their favorite songs.  I've attached a picture that's not very good so that way people cant be identified.  I have some much better photos that show how much fun some of our scouts were having.  I remember having a dance at the non-scout co-ed camp when I was young (over 30 years ago).  That was a traditional slow dance with boys and girls together and of course I didn't want to do it at the time.

wow, that picture I posted is much bigger than I thought it would be. 

[bearess]

I’m really dubious of the idea that this is to accommodate girls.  I think the staff wanted a dance, so they had one.  I just can’t imagine the director sitting around, going “Next year we may have a few girls!  Now, what do ladies like?  Dances!  Scavenger hunts!  Incomplete merit badges!  Oooh, and shopping!  I’ll push the trading post!  They’ll love that!”.  

I’ve done the scavenger hunt thing as a “fun Friday” cross-country practice— kids really like it.  It’s fun, but this just seems ill-planned.  I can think of ways you could mesh the scavenger hunt idea with your traditional end of camp activities if you wanted those a little more structured.  I also think it might be better suited for an hour practice where it’s a fun change, rather than a final day thing.  

[NJCubScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

I think they are doing it to accommodate female troop leaders in scouting. There is all kinds of evidence that they have had some influence on the program. I personally feel some of the silly guidelines in the Guide To Safe Scouting are a female influence.  

Barry

 

50 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As for female Scouters and Moms, I agree. I see some of the silly rules, i.e. no water guns, no laser tag, no pioneering projects over 6 feet, etc as a result of female being involved. 

As long as we are just saying what we "think", with no need for evidence or anything, what I think is that the "silly guidelines" (whatever someone might define them to be, for example, I have no problem with banning laser tag and paintball, and those aren't really safety issues anyway) are driven by "risk management" considerations.  Those decisions are driven by both what has happened in the past and what is predicted to happen in the future.  Whoever is in charge of these decisions at National looked at the risk and predicted risk and decided that, for example, patrol day hikes with no adults represents too much of a risk.  The fact that BSA is "self-insured" doesn't change this.  It just means that as the perceived risk increases, the amount that must be set aside for payment of claims increases, and that has a "cost" that either partially or fully replaces the cost of insurance premiums.

I don't know whether the people who make the risk management decisions at National are male or female, but I "think" (since that seems to be good enough) that they are mostly male.  And in any event, these are financial decisions, and they are made at National, and mostly by professionals.  I don't "think" that what unit Scouters (male or female) think is really part of the decision.

I have also noticed that for the past year or so, it has become increasingly rare for this forum to get through any discussion, on any subject, without gender being mentioned sooner or later.

Edited July 2, 2018 by NJCubScouter

[NJCubScouter]

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

I can tell you that’s not the experience at our council camps. The Scouts usually swarm the trading post sufficiently without any encouragement!

That's my experience as well.  The trading post needs no advertising, beyond telling the kids where it is.

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

 

As long as we are just saying what we "think", with no need for evidence or anything, what I think is that the "silly guidelines" (whatever someone might define them to be, for example, I have no problem with banning laser tag and paintball, and those aren't really safety issues anyway) are driven by "risk management" considerations. 

First, you kind of suggest that this is the first time that we are speaking what we "think". Really?

Second, I shouldn't have used the words "silly guidelines". I meant ""ridiculous guidelines"". I can see risk management for rappelling and climbing, but ""laser tag"" and ""water guns""? 

Barry

[walk in the woods]

@Saltface, maybe define "dance" for us a little better.  Was it akin to awkward teenagers standing along the edges of a jr. high gym wondering who to ask to dance with, or more like @thrifty describes, a bunch of guys doing line dances (not with but concurrently).  A fuzzy line maybe but a line none-the-less.

@qwazse, I concur.  Men should learn to sing for the same reason they should learn to use axes, build fires and cook...."Chicks Dig It!"  :).

[NJCubScouter]

25 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

First, you kind of suggest that this is the first time that we are speaking what we "think". Really?

Second, I shouldn't have used the words "silly guidelines". I meant ""ridiculous guidelines"". I can see risk management for rappelling and climbing, but ""laser tag"" and ""water guns""? 

Barry

I did not suggest it is the first time.  Obviously, it isn't.  However, I just don't comment on it most of the time.  I thought it was appropriate in this case on the theory that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

As I said above, the prohibitions on laser tag (and paintball) are not based on a risk of injury.  This has been discussed in this forum several times over the years.  What they are based on is a perception  that pointing a weapon (paintball gun) or simulated weapon (laser tag gun) at another human being and pulling the trigger is not an appropriate Scouting activity, regardless of the absence of any risk of injury.  I happen to agree with that.  (In past discussions, most members of this forum have not agreed.)  I do not feel the same way about water guns, and if given enough time to think of an explanation of why they are different, I'm sure I could come up with something.   

I do agree that situations in which there is a significant risk of falling from a significant height justify safety precautions beyond what was thought to be appropriate in the 70's.  But I think we have a new prototype for the silly/ridiculous guideline, and that is the ban on patrols going on a day hike (assuming they're not doing rock climbing, etc.) or having a patrol meeting without adults being present.

[Treflienne]

21 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

What they are based on is a perception  that pointing a weapon (paintball gun) or simulated weapon (laser tag gun) at another human being and pulling the trigger is not an appropriate Scouting activity, regardless of the absence of any risk of injury.  I happen to agree with that. 

But who wants a water gun anyway?  They are so wimpy.   At my daughter's school's annual park outing the kids much prefer the water tubes (like a giant syringe) that send a large stream of water.   And the kids who don't have those find it effective to fill a bucket with lake water and simply dump it over the other kids' heads.

[Eagledad]

9 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

As I said above, the prohibitions on laser tag (and paintball) are not based on a risk of injury.  This has been discussed in this forum several times over the years.  What they are based on is a perception  that pointing a weapon (paintball gun) or simulated weapon (laser tag gun) at another human being and pulling the trigger is not an appropriate Scouting activity, regardless of the absence of any risk of injury.  I happen to agree with that.  (In past discussions, most members of this forum have not agreed.)  I do not feel the same way about water guns, and if given enough time to think of an explanation of why they are different, I'm sure I could come up with something.   

Yes, call it what you want, these things go under the header of political correctness.  To me, fearing the scouts will develop an unhealthy habit of pulling triggers from a squirt gun is at the very least, "silly".

Our scouts play a lot of games, but they always end the campout with a game of Capture the Flag. That game is everything boy. So, does adding a laser tag gun change a boys perception of guns or violence? If anything, laser tag develops fairness of competition with a better respect for how to accomplish the game from other means. When I was a scout, we used flour wrapped up in toilet paper as the means of tag. My wife will tell that I won't step within 10 feet of a bag of flour in a kitchen. There have been times I was frustrated enough to throw some flour, but the risk of being pulled in to help fix a salad has kept me balanced. 

Barry

[CalicoPenn]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Calico, it's a well rumored theory that the women at National lock the conference room entrances and kitchen back door as they discuss these things. Pay more attention, will ya.

Barry

I must be reading the wrong blogs!

[walk in the woods]

22 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

But who wants a water gun anyway?  They are so wimpy.   At my daughter's school's annual park outing the kids much prefer the water tubes (like a giant syringe) that send a large stream of water.

So why wouldn't these also be considered simulated firearms and thus also banned by G2SS?

[Treflienne]

11 hours ago, Saltface said:

This was replaced by a scavenger hunt to take selfies with various people and items around camp,

 

4 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

there was an activity to go around to scan QR/Bar Codes from VIP badges. 

 

3 hours ago, shortridge said:

The trend I’ve seen has been adding more and more technology to camp.

So how common is this at boy scout camp?   I've always viewed (girl) scout camp as a good chance for kids to get away from technology for a week.   Back in my childhood it was transistor radios that were the banned item.   These days our local girl scout camp says "The following items are not allowed at camp and should be left at home: cell phones, radios, CD players, iPods or other MP3 players, handheld gaming devices, laptops, tablets, and other electronic devices, candy, gum, food, alcohol, illegal drugs, weapons, pets and animals. If found at camp, they will be confiscated."