Boys' needs

[MattR]

How about a discussion regarding what boys need more of as opposed to what they need less of (i.e., girls). The threads about girls are mostly stuck on boys need less girls around. That's a negative. What are the things the boys need more of? What is it in the BSA program that helps boys? And please don't say boys need there to be no girls.

I'll start. One thing I read is that boys learn much better when doing things then, say, sitting in a class where they need to pay attention. So, all the describe, discuss, and explain in MBs are a huge waste for most boys. The boys need more opportunity to do and either fail or succeed.

The other thing I've seen working with the boys is they need a purpose. I've seen huge changes in a boy when he goes from not having a purpose to having one. The biggest loss in older scouts comes from boys that don't have a purpose. But they need to find that purpose on their own. I can't tell them what to do. A suggestion might work but more likely they'll bounce about till they find something that fits. Maybe another way of saying that is boys don't respond well to external motivation nearly as well as internal motivation. If so then maybe they need more opportunity to find their purpose in a troop? I don't know. Motivating teenage boys is off the charts hard so I doubt if anyone has an easy answer for that. But I'm listening.

[mashmaster]

I think the Boys need more fun and less classroom type work.   Meetings and Merit Badge classes are boring.  They can be fun, but we regulate to much out of what they can't do.  I would like to see the boys better presented with the end goals and working through fun and different ways to get there.  There always seems to be a person telling them they need to follow and teach it a boring way.  

My son is looking at Sea Scouts mainly because the local ships allow the youth to focus on what is fun and then help them gain advancement as a side effect.  I hate the rank of Eagle, because the parents and then the boys become so focused on that and the requirements for it. That the other methods get pushed aside.  It is an easy trap that all of us can fall into.  

Sorry for the ramble.

[gblotter]

Boys need more outdoor, less indoor. More adventure, less bookwork. More moving, less sitting.

Boys need more strong male role models to emulate and admire.

Boys need recognition that they learn differently and behave differently than girls (especially during young adolescence).

Boys need validation that boy behavior does not always equal bad behavior, and that girl behavior does not always equal good behavior.

[bearess]

Boys need relationships with trusted adults and (slightly) older boys.  One thing Ive noticed in my years of teaching is how relationally driven boys are.  I also notice it with adult men— their complaints about someone tend to be along the lines of “he’s a jerk”.  Whereas women complain more about specific instances.

[Eagledad]

Instinctively, boys like to be in groups until puberty. Girls are independent. While boys enjoy personal recognition or respect from their peers (group), they don’t like standing out from the group. Leadership isn’t natural until puberty. They like team play over individual sports. Boys like strategy, which is why baseball comes natural. Boys learn just about everything naturally by watching others; they might as well be deaf because instruction is just plain work. Boys would rather run than walk or jump than going around. Boys are naturally lazy and choose the shortest path to anywhere, even meetings. Boys only like doing things with a purpose like competitions or destinations. They hate practicing anything because they don’t see the point. 

Girls are independent and good with details. They like talking and are very good at listening. Girls aren’t lazy, but would rather walk. They don’t have purpose like boys, but are good at staying busy. They are cautious with things they don’t know and wait, where as boys will jump right in. I’m always struck by their instinct torward wanting to hold babies, even as toddlers. Both boys and girls are curious about changing a diaper, but for different reasons. Boys want to see what’s in the diaper, girls want to learn how to put it on. 

Boys like beer and contact sports while girls...whoops, next chapter.

Barry

 

[JoeBob]

4 hours ago, MattR said:

boys ... need a purpose.

My best successes (maybe only successes) with older scouts is when you get them to own modeling and mentoring.  "Would you teach Youngscout how to ABC?" "How's Youngscout doing?  Do you need any help?"  "Thank you for working with Youngscout."

Once you get them hooked on teaching skills; they realize that they now have the credibility to teach attitudes, manners, and morals.  And the adult leaders are are at the top of this long line of good men teaching boys to be good men, because at some point in their youth, they were Youngscout.

Some boys never get it.  "Okay, Youngscout can tie a square knot now.  I'm going back to throwing rocks in the river."

***

Boys need a safe environment to take risks.  If boys attempt only tasks that they know they can succeed at, they'll never fail, and their personal growth will be slower.  Some boys won't take chances if the girls are watching...

[MattR]

 

4 hours ago, gblotter said:

Boys need more outdoor, less indoor. More adventure, less bookwork. More moving, less sitting.

...

Boys need validation that boy behavior does not always equal bad behavior, and that girl behavior does not always equal good behavior.

More doing seems to be a common thread. And yet, the BSA is filling up on requirements the boys just don't care about.

By boy behavior do you mean roughhousing? Or is it more than that?

3 hours ago, bearess said:

their complaints about someone tend to be along the lines of “he’s a jerk”.  

I've seen that they can't elucidate on any conflict. Their emotions take over and then the talking stops. It could be good for problem solving that needs to get done right now but they need lots of practice at dealing with people problems. And many parents just won't let them deal with those problems. Does the BSA do a better job than at schools?

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

They like team play over individual sports. Boys like strategy, which is why baseball comes natural. Boys learn just about everything naturally by watching others; they might as well be deaf because instruction is just plain work. Boys would rather run than walk or jump than going around. Boys are naturally lazy and choose the shortest path to anywhere, even meetings. Boys only like doing things with a purpose like competitions or destinations. They hate practicing anything because they don’t see the point. 

So is the BSA encouraging any of this? Class rooms for MB fairs. Individual advancement is not team based. The shortest path syndrome makes planning really hard for them. Consequently the easiest meeting to plan is ... some older scout standing up front reading out of a book.

2 hours ago, JoeBob said:

Boys need a safe environment to take risks. 

I think this is important. Is risk a good motivator? I'm not talking about class 5 rapids but it could be as simple as hiking up a hill to get a good view, without the adults around. Does the BSA encourage risk taking? A lot of parents block it. Advancement is the antithesis of risk or adventure. Eagle bling is attractive but that's it.

I certainly would like to hear from more people because these are good points.

[Cambridgeskip]

4 hours ago, MattR said:

I think this is important. Is risk a good motivator? I'm not talking about class 5 rapids but it could be as simple as hiking up a hill to get a good view, without the adults around. Does the BSA encourage risk taking? A lot of parents block it. Advancement is the antithesis of risk or adventure. Eagle bling is attractive but that's it.

I certainly would like to hear from more people because these are good points.

Certainly this side of the pond adults, and I mean adults in the widest sense, parents, teachers etc discourage risk taking. Non scouting adults are often genuinely shocked at what we not only allow but actively encourage scouts to do. I met a teacher once who was literally speechless that we have 10 and 11 year olds using axes. Doing something that is a bit risky, where there is a bit of peril to it, is something that I find boys in particular really respond. The best example I can remember was building a pioneering monkey bridge. It was something they enjoyed doing it as a mock up on a field, but when we did it over an actual small stream, where they might get their feet, (or more!) wet if they did it wrong suddenly got them properly throwing themselves into it.

[ianwilkins]

12 hours ago, MattR said:

And please don't say boys need there to be no girls.

8 hours ago, JoeBob said:

Some boys won't take chances if the girls are watching...

Five posts in. [rolls eyes over dramatically] 

To state the obvious, different kids are different. There's a scale. At one end are risk takers, gung-ho, not thinking about the consequences and just doing it, if it goes wrong then they just do something else to try and achieve it, or do something else entirely different. At the other end there's the cautious thoughtful ones that don't really want to try in case it goes wrong, or want to know why or what the end goal is.

For example, firelighting...

Some you'll turn round and they've got the 5'  branch vertically in one hand trying to split it vertically in half with the axe in the other hand, oblivious to the danger to limb, if not life. Some look at you in confusion and fear when you say "grab the axe then!" Some light the minimal amount of tinder, then desperately scrabble round to flop a great big log on top before it all goes out and they slump back dejected "I can't light fires!" Some listen to what you've said and at least prep some different sizes and will get a fire going. 

It seems to go in waves, sometimes we'll have a bunch of gung-ho, sometimes we'll have a bunch at the other end of the scale.

I must admit, when I hear your talk of merit badge factories and classroom chalk and talks, I think...eh? One of the things scouting is is learning by doing. I reckon I've only got about 30 seconds of talk time before someone thinks starting their own conversation is a cracking idea. How do you teach practical skills? By doing and guiding and making sure no one loses any vital bits.

Another example...Classic team building game we do, the egg drop challenge.

Each team of 3-4 gets an egg, paper, pencil, another sheet of paper, straws, a limited amount of sticky tape, a little string maybe, scissors.

We point to the rafters of the hut and say "we're going to drop the egg in your construction from 15ft, you have ten minutes to plan what you're going to build". Of course, they aren't engineering students. The idea is they chat and discuss and together make a plan to build it. Invariably there's a team that's finished their plan in about a minute. One guy has grabbed the pencil, drawn a parachute, pencils down, job done, chat about school, start playing with phones or mucking about. In the build phase, one team will invariably not really discussed the plan, one or two people will be doing the build, the others will get bored and withdraw. One team will not think it through and use all the sticky tape on two corners or on some straws and have none left for something else.

In the end, the lesson is often that eggs are tougher than you think, and that Ian *really* doesn't like it when you start chucking them about. Hmm.

Tomorrow night we're making modern coracles (little one person circular boats, look them up, they're odd). Off to a nearby pond. Stiff plastic water pipe that comes in a reel, probably 1.5" diameter, flexible up to a point, and plastic sheeting, and brown parcel tape. It's not something they'll have done before, so they'll all have to listen to the instructions, ho ho, some will have to wait until they've seen someone else's before they understand it. But I expect them all to throw themselves into it and have a go, as it's scouts, that's what we do with an unknown situation, have a go, maybe a bit of planning and discussion first, but have at it.

It's also why pioneering is such a good team builder, you can't do big pioneering on your own, and you need to practice the knots, but you can practice them in situ. Shame our lot can't seem to keep any lashings in their head. 

I'm not sure we've been inside more than once this term.

Oh, first three paragraphs of this is good... (and probably more, but I stopped reading)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_method

Ian

[NJCubScouter]

10 hours ago, MattR said:

More doing seems to be a common thread. And yet, the BSA is filling up on requirements the boys just don't care about.

It is the result of what I call the "good idea syndrome."  Everything that is considered a "good idea" is included in the advancement requirements, even though the combined end result of all the "good ideas" is a set of advancement requirements that is too heavily weighted toward "homework" merit badges and (in my opinion) a bloated set of requirements for the lower ranks.  It is a good idea to have Family Life as an Eagle-required MB.  Same for Cit in the World.  Same for Communications.  Same for (insert your own choice here.)  They're all good ideas.  But when you look at the whole thing, it's not so good.

[Jameson76]

The boys need minimal direction, a clear goal, and ability to have fun.  Some of the best activities we have are when we can just let them have a goal, and they come up with the way to get there.

• The troop provided 3 boxes, a plastic painters tarp, and a roll of duct tape.  Goal was to build a boat for one person to navigate to a buoy about 50' out and back.  They had 1 hour
• The "iron chef" competitions.  Give them 3 random ingredients they need to include in their patrol dinners
• Build some check dams for a conservation project, 5 minutes of instruction with PLC of what a check dam is and how they are built, one hour later 4 good check dams to slow down water are in place

 Agree on the school work merit badges.  Many of the scouts have zero interest in completing them, or see them as heeewge mountain to climb.  More action, let them lead, keep them between the ditches.  Also give them time to socialize and enjoy the day (or evening) at campouts.   Every minute does not have to be scheduled.

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, Jameson76 said:

 Agree on the school work merit badges.  Many of the scouts have zero interest in completing them, or see them as heeewge mountain to climb.  More action, let them lead, keep them between the ditches.  Also give them time to socialize and enjoy the day (or evening) at campouts.   Every minute does not have to be scheduled.

Socializing is so important. I've told the story many times of the new SM of a six month old troop calling me to ask what else scouts could do on campouts besides advancement. When I mentioned free time, his response was "you mean let Scouts do what they want?". His tone was not accepting of the idea.

 We even bring a lot of games, balls and frisbies to summer camp so the scouts can socialize throwing a ball or playing chess. In many ways, the scouts are getting to do what they would like to do at home, but are too busy with sports and outside programs. As intense as camping can be, it can actually be more relaxing. 

Barry

[MattR]

I wish the SM minute idea applied to merit badges (other than safety issues). You have one minute to discuss careers. One minute to discuss the food pyramid. That's all they'll listen to anyway. Safety is different. Besides, all you have to do is talk about how you can die doing something stupid and they'll pay attention.

11 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

The boys need minimal direction, a clear goal, and ability to have fun.  Some of the best activities we have are when we can just let them have a goal, and they come up with the way to get there.

Good point. If merit badge books came with examples of ideas of these kinds of things then that would be a profound change. First of all, scouts would actually read the books! If the scout planning books did the same thing it would also help. I like coming up with ideas like this but it is work. A few scouts have the imagination to do this but most don't. Most adults don't like it either. I made a whole camporee out of activities like this and the response was very good. In all honesty, a one day course on making the fun in fun with a purpose would be good. Tell them the basics in a half hour and then spend the rest of the day making the games and then playing them.

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

When I mentioned free time, his response was "you mean let Scouts do what they want?". His tone was not accepting of the idea.

Especially if there's a stream or rock out cropping or a bunch of trees or pile of snow or a hill that you can slide on or .... My recipe was always a planned activity in the morning and free time in the afternoon. Very few scouts will hang out in their tents. I've had so many scouts tell me the free time was some of the best fun they had.

[Eagledad]

Thinking more on it, free time was even a favorite social time great time of day even on high adventure treks. I will always remember the boys intensely playing cards under the tarp blocking the Colorado afternoon showers. They even taught themselves how to make french-fries junk food with the potatoes we were carrying on the Northern Tier canoeing trips. Who doesn't need down-time after an intense day of outdoor adventure?

Barry

[mashmaster]

28 minutes ago, MattR said:

I wish the SM minute idea applied to merit badges (other than safety issues). You have one minute to discuss careers. One minute to discuss the food pyramid. That's all they'll listen to anyway. Safety is different. Besides, all you have to do is talk about how you can die doing something stupid and they'll pay attention.

Good point. If merit badge books came with examples of ideas of these kinds of things then that would be a profound change. First of all, scouts would actually read the books! If the scout planning books did the same thing it would also help. I like coming up with ideas like this but it is work. A few scouts have the imagination to do this but most don't. Most adults don't like it either. I made a whole camporee out of activities like this and the response was very good. In all honesty, a one day course on making the fun in fun with a purpose would be good. Tell them the basics in a half hour and then spend the rest of the day making the games and then playing them.

Especially if there's a stream or rock out cropping or a bunch of trees or pile of snow or a hill that you can slide on or .... My recipe was always a planned activity in the morning and free time in the afternoon. Very few scouts will hang out in their tents. I've had so many scouts tell me the free time was some of the best fun they had.

Agreed about the SM minute idea.  When merit badges are taught by someone who is passionate about the topic they are well done, even if they talk a lot.  They find the topic interesting, they aren't reading from a book, and they are animated.  That enthusiasm translates to the boys.   When it is someone not passionate about the topic it is dry and boring.  At least most of the time.   

And yes free time is important, having a bag of games or balls in the trailer are an important team building tool.