potentially the stupidest GTSS rule?

[awanatech]

I've gotten a splinter from a wheelbarrow handle before.  Does that count as a danger? 

I remember about 3 years ago when our Webelos made soap-box derby cars at Cub Day Camp and raced them down the sloped parking lot in the back of the church.  That looked about as dangerous as riding the wagon down the driveway as a kid.  But they had helmets on, so I guess everything was ok.  

[The Latin Scot]

Uh oh. Time to confess ...

At Day Camp the other week there were literally DOZENS of wagons; parents and leaders were encouraged to bring them to carry water bottles, backpacks, et cetera. But in my ignorance, I ... I let the boys pull the wagon for me! Had I but known the DANGER they were in, I never would have allowed it, but they asked so nicely and were trying so hard to be helpful that I ... I ... I LET THEM DO IT! 

The shame! The recklessness of my foolish decisions! My choices could have left that campground littered with little Cub Scout bodies! What was I thinking?!?!?

Anyways, I thought I would come clean to all of you. I had no idea this was a BSA policy, but now that I know, well, things are going to be different. No crushed little Cubbies on my watch, that's for sure!

 

 

 

There. That should have vented about a month's worth of sarcasm from me. Anyway this policy is ridiculous. Is there anything boys CAN do anymore?

Edited July 1, 2018 by The Latin Scot

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, The Latin Scot said:

There. That should have vented about a month's worth of sarcasm from me. Anyway this policy is ridiculous. Is there anything boys CAN do anymore?

Not for much longer. Boys can't do anything by themselves after October 1, 2018.

[Oldscout448]

40 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Not for much longer. Boys can't do anything by themselves after October 1, 2018.

The adventurous boys will still carry on, they just won't tell the adults about it.  I suspect if they were handed a G2SS it would be used to start their next campfire.   it's hard to blame them.   I would have done the same.

[SSScout]

"Fifth Graders Form Wagon Train,  Recreate Old Frontier Pioneers"    http://www.gazette.net/gazette_archive/2002/200219/olney/news/103770-1.html

""Children would get caught in stampedes, or drown," Rachel (age eleven) said. "They had some hardships.""

It is unclear if this event has happened again recently. I could find no internet relatable item.

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by SSScout

[MattR]

2011

http://www.gazette.net/stories/05182011/olnenew201953_32535.php

2015

https://issuu.com/thegazette/docs/rockville_052015

[SSScout]

MattR, there ya go. 

[69RoadRunner]

Wagons are a gateway drug to go-karts.

[Treflienne]

Just dropped my daughter off at girl scout camp yesterday.   The camp has a number of two-wheel carts that the girls (who are grade 2 and up) use to haul their luggage from the parking lot up the hill to their units. 

[Jameson76]

On 7/1/2018 at 1:15 PM, The Latin Scot said:

Uh oh. Time to confess ...

At Day Camp the other week there were literally DOZENS of wagons; parents and leaders were encouraged to bring them to carry water bottles, backpacks, et cetera. But in my ignorance, I ... I let the boys pull the wagon for me! Had I but known the DANGER they were in, I never would have allowed it, but they asked so nicely and were trying so hard to be helpful that I ... I ... I LET THEM DO IT! 

The shame! The recklessness of my foolish decisions! My choices could have left that campground littered with little Cub Scout bodies! What was I thinking?!?!?

Anyways, I thought I would come clean to all of you. I had no idea this was a BSA policy, but now that I know, well, things are going to be different. No crushed little Cubbies on my watch, that's for sure!

There. That should have vented about a month's worth of sarcasm from me. Anyway this policy is ridiculous. Is there anything boys CAN do anymore?

To be clear, the GTSS (bow your heads) merely states Wheel cart (1-, 2-, or 4-wheeled) to be used by Youth 14 years and Older.   Using my on-line law degree I note that cart, wagon, non powered conveyance is not specifically mentioned as forbidden.  That which is not included is assumed to be excluded. 

If the wise ones from on high that handed down the tome that is the sacred GTSS had intended for wagons to be part of the decree, they would have stated thus.  

For examples the age group 14 and older are the ones that can use a pickaxe and a mattock, which seem to be the same (see below) but are in fact listed seperately

PICKAXE

MATTOCK

Edited July 2, 2018 by Jameson76

[TAHAWK]

On 6/24/2018 at 1:22 PM, mashmaster said:

OK, helping out on an Eagle project today.  The new SM announces that the guide to safe scouting says you need to be 14 to use a wheelbarrow or wagon.  We let them use knives but they can't use a wheelbarrow?  

Is that the stupidest rule you have heard of?  

No.  In is merely highly inconvenient and unnecessary to bar wagon and wheelbarrows for 10.5-13 Scouts in BSA Scouting.  I is very damaging to program to seem to require two registered adults "at" all BSA Scouting activities: a fine example of people locked in a "bubble" - here the risk mangement bubble - and ignoring the need to povide program, already limited by lack of adult help and nor to be significantly more limited.  

 

And it is not about "safety."  If it were,  the presence of a Scout's parent(s) would suffice.  They are the lawful parents, with custody.  We lack any legal status.

[TAHAWK]

On 6/24/2018 at 1:22 PM, mashmaster said:

OK, helping out on an Eagle project today.  The new SM announces that the guide to safe scouting says you need to be 14 to use a wheelbarrow or wagon.  We let them use knives but they can't use a wheelbarrow?  

Is that the stupidest rule you have heard of?  

It is merely highly inconvenient and unnecessary to bar wagons and wheelbarrows for 10.5-13 Scouts in BSA Scouting.  You can carry the concrete, sand, dirt, etc. in buckets (Risks to the spine unless load balanced!!)   It would merely greatly increase the time and effort required for any service project involving moving significant weights and volumes of material. 

(The rule is being systematically ignored in this area, the historic fate of silly rules,  creating disrespect and disregard for safety rules in general. 

It is a serious misdemeanor in Cleveland, Ohio, punishable by AT LEAST six months in jail to pick up a plastic knife at  McDonad's or (in a "public place") any other "knife" with a blade 2.5" or longer.  That rule, too, is ignored by one and all, except prosecutors seeking to over-indict someone charged with another crime for bargaining leverage. )( Go ahead.  Measure a McD's plastic "knife."  Thee blade is 3".)

It is very damaging to program to seem to require two registered adults "at" all BSA Scouting activities: a fine example of people locked in a "bubble" - here the risk management bubble - and ignoring the need to provide program, already sharply limited by lack of adult help and now to be significantly more limited.  

The presence of a Scout's parent(s), nearby, should suffice  They are the lawful custodians of the minor.  We lack any legal status vis-a-vis the child because we are (for the moment) Scouters registered with BSA.

"Stupidest Rule?"

The local rules that allow axes and any "folding knife" and provide zero tolerance for fixed-blade knives are at least as stupid because safety is a function of the type  and size of knife, training of the user, and supervision - not whether it folds or not.  In fact, all other things being equal, a folding knife is, statistically, less safe.  Lock-blades?- A lock-blade knife, when locked, is, at that point, functionally, a fixed-blade knife.  But the authors of the ZT rules did't think of that, having little actual information but many fears.

Most such rules tend to be made by the ignorant out of feelings rather than based on facts.  Those who know and use knives might suggest a limiting rule, but it would not be THAT rule. 

ADDED EXAMPLE: 1968 ban on telescoping stocks and flash suppressors on rifles BUT allowed folding stocks and (!) compensators.  The gun nuts knew how silly this was.  The paranoid were clueless about the relative functions of the parts banned or allowed ("Learn about guns?!" 😵).   The folding stock is functionally equivalent  to the telescoping stock, and the compensator allows a higher rate of aimed fire, which the flash suppressor does not.